13. Spiritual Healing
Spiritual Web Chat
Session 1: Sat 12 Sep 1998

Ben< Tonight is the first of a series of seminars on spiritual healing. As usual for these seminars, it is very large subject area, so we'll probably only scratch the surface, but we'll try to look at the scope of the subject and some of the subsets.

Ben< First, what are we talking about?

Ben< According to Webster, "to heal" means: (1) to become healthy again; get well, recover from illness or injury; and also (2) to help another become healthy again, make well, remedy illness, repair injury, and thus restore to health. Both senses of the term are important, because they indicate two different sources of healing (internal and external to the one who is healed).

Ben< Health is defined (by Webster) as freedom from disease, pain or defect; normality of physical and mental functions. Thus, health is the normal condition; illness and injury are departures from the normal condition. To recover or restore health is to return to the normal condition.

Ben< Spiritual, in the broadest sense of the term, means "not material; not physical". So when we speak of spiritual healing, we infer that the initial cause (source) of the healing isn't physical or chemical. This would seem to exclude therapies such as surgery and drugs, but as we shall see, spiritual healing isn't that simple.

Ben< Now let's look at some fairly recent examples of spiritual healers, to see what they did, how they explained it, and/or how we think they healed people.

Ben< ALL: If you are familiar with the work of Edgar Cayce, what did he do? How did he explain it? How do you think he did it? YOUR TURN

blueye< I have heard of but not read Edgar Cayce's work.

Yopo< Same with me. Not familiar enough with Cayce to venture an opinion.

SLIDER/Abyss< I believe Cayce drew on the power of other good spirits for the directions and remedies for the healings he was involved in.

blueye< I do agree with SLIDER'S statement

Ben< SLIDER/Abyss: Cayce's diagnoses and treatments were pretty obviously beyond his own capabilities.

Polgara< Wasn't he a trance-medium who was able to diagnose and then treat people's illnesses?

Ben< Polgara: Yes, he worked while asleep (in a trance).

LAGONE< Edgar Cayce was a simple man who taught Sunday school and had a great faith in the Almighty. He didn't understand his own gift.

FRAML< I remember that Cayce said he was getting the information from a spiritual source, but it was about types of medicine and treatments. Also he didn't have any way to determine if the source was good or bad, because of his being in a trance.

Ben< LAGONE, FRAML: Good point. Cayce didn't really know what he did, or how the diagnosis and prescription was done, and therefore couldn't explain it, because he was in a trance.

windi< He often tapped into what he called the Akashic Records, although I am not sure that he used them to locate people or remedies for their illnesses ... probably causes, though, in some cases.

Lor< I have the impression the Cayce was able to communicate with a group of spirits (probably former medical people) that answered his call to the lord that he wanted to help people.

summer2< I believe he tapped into the universal consciousness, something we all have the ability to do.

SLIDER/Abyss< According to literature written about Cayce, he was shown at a young age that he had this power to contact good spirits, and that he should try to use it whenever possible.

Cassandra< I believe he contacted his Higher Self -- The Spirit within him. It would know all the answers.

5foot2< As I recall, Cayce could go into a trance and be able to see inside people's bodies and determine what was the matter with them.

greyman< Communication from sender (healer, incarnate or discarnate, substance) to receiver (person or organism to be healed) is done on many levels. Confidence (trust and the will to be healed) must be established verbally and physically through a flow of healing energy. There are only two ways I know to generate this energy: 1) care, and 2) ask for my caring to be amplified from a more loving and caring being than myself. Hopefully more powerful. *g*.

Polgara< greyman: So would that mean that a 'negative source' couldn't heal, or that the healing would be only temporary, and thus not real?

greyman< Polgara: Yes. Negative energy doesn't heal, but it can be used to kill cancer. And after all, physical healing is only temporary. Lazarus died twice.

LAGONE< My husband believed in God and me. He did manage to stay with me longer than the doctors had predicted. I just worked with herbs. I'm not a vessel. God is the true healer.

blueye< LAGONE: Yes, I agree, God is the true healer. If it is his will, he will allow the healing through spirit contact, is what I feel.

Yopo< Hmm... So Cayce was more a channel for conveying diagnostic and treatment information, rather than a direct "hands-on" sort of healer? Didn't know that.

Lor< Cayce was given information about his client by a spiritual source, and it was taken down by a secretary as he spoke the message given him in trance. He was a simple good man that wished well of others. He tried to be a good Christian person, as he best understood that.

Ben< Another comment on Edgar Cayce -- sometimes he was used for not-so-good purposes, like exploring for oil wells, but something or someone brought those efforts to naught.

FRAML< Ben: Yes, the old "Are we using our gifts for Power or Purpose?"

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben: Whenever Cayce tried to do this type of work for any monetary gain for anyone is when it usually backfired.

Lor< Once someone used Cayce while he was under trance to tell the outcome of some ball game or something like that in order to bet on the outcome. Cayce was unaware of this and would have disagreed strongly and not allowed same had he known. However, he suffered violent headaches when he came out of the trance and suspected that something like that had happened.

LadyV< Lor: That's interesting...

order< I have read much on Cayce and have been to the A.R.E. headquarters, and while some entities did manage to speak through Cayce, he generally merely read the Akashic Records within his Higher Self and became a channel through which his own Soul/Spirit was expressed in his readings. *S

greyman< order: I have also read much on Cayce and have been to the A.R.E. headquarters. I can assure you that I have the highest respect for his talent and integrity. I would hope any caring decent person would be of like mind. *G*

Ben< ALL: If you are familiar with the work of Arigo, what did he do? How did he explain it? How do you think he did it? YOUR TURN

SLIDER/Abyss< Sorry, Ben, never heard of him.

Yopo< Arigo... He's the "psychic surgeon" from South America?

Ben< Yopo: Yes, Arigo was a psychic surgeon. He isn't nearly as well known as Edgar Cayce, so I'll post a brief description.

Creativlit< Hello ... just walked in. Sorry to say I haven't heard of Arigo, but would love to learn.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben: Is he the same person they did a television documentary on?

FRAML< He was a simple man who performed incredible surgery with an old pocket knife. He was in South America. He said he got his information from the spirit of a German doctor, and he also credited God with his ability.

SLIDER/Abyss< FRAML: That was the same guy I was thinking of.

LadyV< Ben: Was Arigo the Malayan that was supposed to do healing surgery, but they found out he was a fake? ... not sure here ... probably in error ...trying to place the name.

Ben< LadyV: No, that wasn't Arigo, but you make a good point nevertheless. There have been a lot of fake healers, including fake psychic surgeons.

Lor< I had never heard that Arigo was a fake. He had a fantastic reputation for healing many types of serious medical conditions. Somewhat like Pastor Pio did (I'm not sure of his correct name at this moment).

Ben< Lor: Arigo wasn't a fake. And neither was Padre Pio.

LadyV< Lor: Pio did heal ... bless him...

SLIDER/Abyss< Lor: From what I heard about Arigo, the authorities and the medical professionals where he lived trumped up things to down-grade him, but it is all hearsay.

Dolphie< I imagine many have tried to make these people look like fakes, as they have done all saints all through the ages.

Ben< Arigo diagnosed hundreds of people per day, prescribed a variety of medical treatments, and performed actual physical operations using the nearest available knife. His success rate was astonishing. His own explanation was that he was working with and for a team of discarnate doctors.

Yopo< Ben: You mean, he actually made surgical incisions? That left surgical wounds to heal, same as a conventional procedure?

Ben< Yopo: Yes, he did. But the incisions healed very quickly.

Yopo< LadyV & Ben: Thanks for clarification. Think I've got information about several of those people mixed up. I was thinking about some guy who operated with his bare hands. Removed and discarded "tumors" and such without leaving a wound. Reminded me of some shamanic practices, where a stone or other object is produced and discarded as part of the healing process.

Cassandra< Yopo: I was thinking of him, too, but can't remember his name. Thought it started with an A though.

LadyV< Yopo: That is the man I mentioned to Ben earlier. It was a Trick of hand ... fooled many people. I forget his name ... reason I was confused.

Yopo< LadyV: "Tricks" are occasionally legitimate in some contexts. Like the shaman who takes a stone from a person, displays and discards it. Or sucks out "poison" from the body. It operates on a symbolic level and strengthens the person's belief that they are being helped. And belief is a very strong force.

LadyV< Yopo: Agree that is why the man in question got by with deceiving people, and the harm was that they did not seek medical care, and many died. The shaman has a place, I feel more for the psychological purpose. Medical problems, the shaman best leave to medicine, but in primitive society that is all there is. Appreciate your point, Yopo.

Aqua< Ben: What's your opinion on this: Spiritual healing is a kind of healing process where it happens only when we had managed to contact and aware of our Soul and Spirit through living impeccably in our life, other is consider as psychic or paranormal healing?

[Ben< Aqua: Our terminology for this subject isn't precise. Spiritual healing could be defined as you suggest, as a subset of paranormal healing. However, since Webster defines health as the normal condition, and healing as a return to the normal condition, I'm using "spiritual" in the broadest sense, so as to include all non-physical healing whether normal or paranormal.]

LAGONE< Ben: There are a lot of people out there who claim to be healers, but I get turned off because I always thought that one who received the gift should be pure in mind and spirit. Is this wrong? or can anyone do it?

[Ben< LAGONE: The ability to heal oneself spiritually seems to be more-or-less active in sapient beings; however, the ability to actually heal another spiritually is rare in every time and society that I have any information about.]

Lor< LAGONE: I believe it is the source of the healing energy that must be "pure" and that neither the patient nor the healer themselves need be so pure. In Cayce's case, his simple caring was sufficiently good to permit him to contact the spirit team that helped him. I have no way of knowing about their purity, except that their information was generally pretty much correct (per the statistics that Cayce accumulated).

order< Lor: The Cayce readings said that the purity of the channel through which information was coming was primary, paramount, to the degree of accuracy or purity.

Istahota< order: Had a statement from Cayce saying we need to be clear channels. That deals with self-healing first, which will allow us to do the very best we can instead of just half of a job. Just a good place to start for me.

Ben< By the way, Edgar Cayce wasn't a fake. His healings are well documented.

Samanta< How do we know a person is pure in mind and spirit?

heavenly< Samantha: Your first impression.

LAGONE< Samanta: By the way they treat others. I'm sorry, I still have a child-like belief. A lot of things go over my head and I don't reach for them. *S*

Samanta< LAGONE: Ah, well, I also have a child-like belief and I love it!

heavenly< Well, the way you feel towards it is more like it. That never fails. I've bumped and I've learned.

Ben< ALL: If you are familiar with the work of Barbara Brennan, what does she do? How does she explain it? How do you think she does it? YOUR TURN

blueye< I really must get out and read more. :(

Dolphie< There is nothing out there being done that ANY one of US could not also do. We are all vehicles for God or Spirit. Which is exactly what Jesus tried to show us. He said "You can do everything I do and even greater things than these."

Samanta< Dolphie: I have the same belief, even though it is good to learn, I think.

heavenly< Dolphie: Being less and becoming pure messengers of Love

Dolphie< Most of us don't "believe" we can do those things, and that is the only reason we cannot. *S* All we have to do is to truly believe.

Lor< Dolphie: I am under the impression that it is best when we do not have to use our own energy to heal, as sometimes we can contract the malady ourselves. Our belief in being able to heal is possibly not the only criterion -- it is knowing how to both pray and heal while "believing" we can do those things and having a proper purpose in some spiritually ethical sense that seem crucial to success.

blueye< If it is done not for self-gain but for the highest good of mankind, then I believe it is pure. :)

Polgara< I don't think God always uses 'pure' vessels to do his work. I think it pleases him to work through us just the way we are to reveal how great his power truly is. I also think there are MANY who try to discredit that, in fear of what it means to their way of life! IMHO.

Dolphie< Polgara: That is a very good point. If everyone were pure channels, they would not be working from this side, eh?

summer2< Polgara: I agree. If anyone has read Conversations With God, Neale Donald Walsch is not perfect or pure and supposedly God spoke through him.

LadyV< Polgara: I agree with you. Some of the worst stinkers alive serve God in the strangest ways. (smiling)

LAGONE< LadyV: How does one have a belief in the stinker?

LadyV< LAGONE: Not in the stinker -- in what is being sent through the stinker. Takes a man/woman that has walked the road to know how the other guy is feeling, and how to warn. I have seen many people used this way, sometime will tell you about it. A pious person does not always know nor understand; they try, and do well, but sometimes, to my mind, God uses the one he tempered in the fire. That is my observation. It is not the bringer of the news; it is what is being projected through them. They are nothing; it is the power of the spirit that is there. (smiling)

SLIDER/Abyss< LadyV: I tend to agree very much with many of the things in your last post, although they do not always settle with my feelings the way I would like. By looking at both sides, you can get a better picture.

LadyV< SLIDER/Abyss: Yes, to see both sides in all things is fair. (smiling)

order< Polgara: God, the One Force or Mind, is ever attempting to express through all creation, man included. I do not think He/It delights in the fact that our channels are not 'pure'. *S

Polgara< Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough, order. I think he delights in REVEALING his power, especially in ways which turn our human logic (and especially prejudices) upside down. That is what I meant.

order< Polgara: I see. I think God is Delight and Harmony and Love Itself, the force that is Life Itself, the Consciousness from which our consciousness emerges. Therefore, to me, this pure energy may be more to soul's benefit and awakening to the Divine Purpose. This likely does harmonize with the One. *S

Ben< ALL: Did you see my post about Barbara Brennan? She is still active, and I think she is relatively well known.

Yopo< Drawing a blank on Barbara Brennan.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben: Have not heard of this Brennan person. Can you tell us some about her?

blueye< Barbara? No, I missed that post, Ben.

summer2< Have heard of her books but have not read any.

heavenly< Ben: Barbara Ann Brennan. I got her book. It's an excellent way to put auras and healing into scientific terms.

LadyV< I don't know Barbara Brennan. Is she one of the TV healers that used to be around? Kulgman was one. Never heard of Brennan.

Ben< Okay, I'll post a short paragraph on Barbara Brennan. (She wrote "Hands of Light")

Ben< Barbara Brennan works to repair the spiritual body of the person, apparently with or without the help of discarnate entities. And she transfers psychic energy to the person. Her explanation makes sense to me.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben: I did watch on PBS one night about a woman healer who would bring the fragmented spirit of a person back together to make that person whole again. She worked a lot with Native Americans. It made sense to me. Is this the same person? Barbara Brennan?

Ben< SLIDER/Abyss: I didn't see that PBS special, so I don't know if it is the same person. However, re-integration of spiritual fragmentation is a method of healing.

SLIDER/Abyss< This woman's explanation was pretty intriguing, and it really kept my attention. If I find out what her name is, I will be sure to let you know.

Ben< ALL: If you are familiar with the work of Ambrose and Olga Worrall, what did they do? How did they explain it? How do you think they did it? YOUR TURN

FRAML< Ben: They focused on people who were ill, made contact, and then sent "energy/power" to them. She has a verified record of people who were healed by her. She DID NOT focus on the person being sick, but on them being well.

Yopo< Ben: I'm afraid you're gonna send some of us back for remedial reading. I shoulda looked at the prerequisites before I signed on for this particular class. *S*

SLIDER/Abyss< Yopo: Hey buddy, do you have any Cliff notes to share?

Yopo< Ben: Ambrose and Olga, not at all...

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben: I may have heard of these two people, but until I hear of something they have done, it does not spark any memory.

blueye< Ben: I have never heard of them.

Mars< Ben: Perhaps it may be wise to explain who they are. I am familiar with their work, however, vaguely. I would enjoy to have a small refresher. :)

Ben< Mars: Good point. I've studied this for so long I assume most people have. I'll put together a list of recommended reading for next week (and the URLs of some used book search engines. *smile*)

Ben< ALL: The Worralls worked by prayer and the laying on of hands. They also did remote healing. They held healing sessions in their home for many years, and later led healing services at a Methodist Church in Baltimore. They accepted no payment. They both said the healing power came from God, and they were just channels of God's power. Their explanation also makes sense to me.

Lor< Yes, I met Olga Worrall on at least two occasions. She was a very kindly woman who cared for her clients and prayed for them while she laid her hands on them. She participated in a number of scientific experiments aimed at better understanding her psychic abilities.

Ben< ALL: Summary to this point: there are various approaches to spiritual healing. We will look at some more of them next week. In the meantime, here is a handy-dandy little thinking tool that may help to organize this subject. Grab a piece of paper and a pencil.

Ben< Draw a 3x3 cell box (the same as for Tic-Tac-Toe). Across the top, above the boxes, write "physical, mental/emotional, spiritual". Down the left side, outside the boxes, write "health, illness, death." Now you can put a little mark in any of the nine cells to indicate cause and effect.

Ben< For example, the cause of a psychosomatic illness is mental/emotional, but the effect is also physical. Likewise, in healing by suggestion or autosuggestion (the placebo effect), the cause is mental/emotional, but the effect is also physical.

Ben< ALL: Now, if you would, please suggest other healers and/or healing methods that you would like to discuss next week or the week after. YOUR TURN

windi< Ben: A very good point to make in regard to spiritual healing. Finding the visualization/method of healing that works best for oneself in healing work seems ultimately to be what most well known healers have done. It is interesting to note however, that even though many of us do not seem familiar with one or another of the authors you mention, many have made very astute comments regarding healing.

order< I can't think of a one. (sigh)

Aqua< It is important to pay attention to the outcome of a healing process. When the fruits of healing is calming, cooling, and remedy a patient, then we shall say the healing is okay. If more stressful emotions were seen on the patient, then the method used was improper, especially when it generates fear to the patient or to observers.

summer2< What about Rosemary Altea? She contacts the spirits of loved ones who have passed on. This is healing in a way. It helps to heal emotional and possibly physical...

5foot2< I believe we are two: the physical form and the energy that animates it, energy interacting with energy. (Focusing on negative energy drains energy; focusing on positive energy emits, better for donor and recipient). Those who see, heal or perform what often is referred to as paranormal have attained the next level of the self energy, and as such are able to effect/affect through CHOICE the energy of the environment around them. These people are not the special or chosen ones, but rather pioneers on a path that all can travel. *respectfully, from my reality*

Doucia< Ben: I am "remembering" healing, thus anything about the subject sounds good to me. *S*

Ben< Doucia: "remembering healing" Yes. *smile*

Creativlit< I would like to hear more about Reiki. Also, Ben, I am quite new to this and only recently am listening to the call to heal. What are some books you could recommend to a person like me?

Ben< Creativlit: Reiki is one of the approaches to healing with which I am not familiar enough, so I hope someone will be here who can discuss it.

Istahota< Creativlit: Look for Caroline Myess Tapes.

greyman< It is interesting that a simple low voltage DC source can be used to restore damaged nerve cells.

LadyV< greyman: Good point, engineer!!!

greyman< LadyV: Ahhhh shucks, ma'am.

order< What would happen if all were healers in this dimensional plane of consciousness, and if there was no longer any sickness, disharmony, or death? Is that what we are trying to achieve? I would like to know what others are hoping would come out of such a possibility? *S

Samanta< order: I agree!

order< Samantha: **S**

Samanta< order: But that should be our goal, isn't it? no illness, no death, no disharmony, no unlove, etc. (don't know how to write these words) *s*

blueye< Yes, it would be nice not to have illness and all of those other things, but I also feel these are lessons we choose to learn from past lives. So if healing doesn't work, then I just feel it was meant to be. One day when we all go home to our maker, then we will see no illness and suffering, is how I feel. So if it is God's will for healing to be done, then it will be.

Yopo< blueye: In my own life, illness has sometimes been a teacher. I've sorta come to see illness as a multi-dimensional event, and am not always certain where it comes from or what its purpose might be. Sometimes it does seem like a purely physical event, with purely physical, cause/effect origins. Other times, it seems like a physical manifestation of a dis-ease with emotional or spiritual aspects of my life.

SLIDER/Abyss< order: We have to remember that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. This is all a learning process. As we focus our thought we manifest our reality.

order< SLIDER/Abyss: I do remember ... but my question remains unanswered by this comment? *S

greyman< order: Time to learn a new discipline. *g*

order< greyman: New 'order'? *S*

Yopo< I'd like to hear some discussion about prayer and healing...

Ben< Yopo: Yes, we will discuss prayer and healing.

MonaHawke< Yopo: I remember hearing not too long ago that someone did an experiment with some people who were sick and/or having surgeries. They prayed for half of the group and not for the other half. The half that received prayers healed better/faster/more completely. Interesting, eh?

LadyV< I believe in the power of prayer. It is one most important factor, and as MonaHawke has said, it is now being tested. Only, if it were me, I would want to be on the side of the ones being prayed for. I have a strong faith in the power of the energy of prayer, however one prays ... does not matter ... all the same ... it is a positive force. I believe that we are aided by the universe in our prayers, and those that have gone ahead of us. It is one family regardless of our culture or our gender and race that prays with us for the sick and for humanity. And at this time we all had better get to it ... it is needed now more than ever. A man enters here sometimes late at night, and he is going to smoke his pipe. I do not know this man, but he says "Are there prayers?" and I think "Isn't that grand ... he smokes his pipe for all of us." Things are looking up, folks.

dancer< LadyV: I also believe very deeply in the power of prayer...

windi< LadyV: I agree totally with you regarding the power of prayer. People praying for something is giving energy and focus towards whatever it is they are praying for. We can all use prayers. I spend most of my 'thought' time in prayer or in thanks to the Almighty.

FRAML< I know there is a Roman Catholic Priest in California who is known as a vessel for people to be healed by God. Unfortunately I don't remember his name. But the sister of a good friend was healed during one of his Masses. He announces at the beginning that he does not do the healing, he does not guarantee who, if anyone there, will be healed. Sometimes a person is healed, other times not.

Aqua< Spiritual healing is more a kind of healing generated once a human lives impeccably in his routine life, not a healing skill that he/she acquired by learning from textbook or attending similar seminar/workshop. If that is so, it is more to be named Psychic/paranormal healing?

Doucia< Aqua: Rather, most of us are here to "remember" healing. It is through "masters" and books and seminar workshops that we start this process. We all have the gift to heal. *S*

Aqua< Doucia: Yes, you are right.

Lor< Doucia: Is it that we all have the "gift to heal" or that we all can be vessels for healing? -- that is, to be instruments in the process of permitting or causing someone to be healed, where the actual healing energy may come from some other source that we arrange to be focused on the patient. I suspect that no doctor actually heals a patient himself -- that although doctors can be very helpful, it is actually some spiritual source in the final analysis that influences the cells to do what is needed to actually effect the healing.

Doucia< Lor: Yes, good point. *smiling*

Creativlit< I guess for me the more I open myself up and allow myself to be used by the Father/Creator to heal, the more I find myself being healed.

Doucia< Very well said, Creativlit.

Ben< Creativlit: Good observation. It is a blessing to be a blessing.

Samanta< Creativlit: That should be, of course! (humble opinion)

dancer< Ben: Anything on energy healing would be wonderful ... Reiki, laying on of hands, prayer.

summer2< I believe love needs to be present for any type of healing to take place ... love and belief/knowing ... knowing that it will take place.

Yopo< I think some discussion of the perils of non-conventional healing practices might be good, too. I know of one case where a friend relied entirely on non-conventional approaches with a very serious illness, and delayed a diagnostic exam too long. She might still be with us if she had not waited. I think this is an important consideration.

Ben< Yopo: Good point. Some people insist on spiritual healing to the exclusion of other forms of healing, and sometimes to their own detriment.

Ben< /topic Discussion of spiritual healing

Ben< ALL: Please feel free to describe a healing you have received or a healing in which you have been instrumental. YOUR TURN

blueye< I participated in a healing of a child using a medicine wheel, I believe the first time ever, and it was a wonderful feeling. Felt warmth and beautiful colors and much energy. A visual of hands being laid on the child's face, much light.

Doucia< Wow, blueye, sounds amazing.

LadyV< blueye: You are blessed ... very blessed ... to have witnessed that.

FRAML< Ben: Does Christian Science work in this realm?

Ben< FRAML: Yes, of course. Christian Science is devoted to spiritual healing. We should take a look at their premises and techniques.

greyman< I would like to say it was some miraculous regeneration of some vital body part or the cure of some incurable disease, but alas, it was just a few kind words that healed a wounded heart.

5foot2< So could it be that sometimes the physical body requires healing, and sometimes the spiritual body?

[Ben< 5foot2: Yes. And oftentimes when the spiritual body is healed, the physical body heals itself by conforming to the spiritual body.]

summer2< I don't think it has to be God's will, but the will of the person being healed. It must be their will to be healed. They must allow it to happen or agree to it.

blueye< The reason I say God's will is, if it interferes with spiritual growth. Like Creativlit expressed. Yes, I agree that the healer and healee need the will also. :)

order< The soul that seeks Truth/Love and then lives that truth/love by giving truth/love will not be in conflict with itself, will not be unhealthy. *S* But, a person/soul that cheats Itself and goes against it's own most basic beliefs is creating disharmony within and illness must result if the pattern is not changed.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben: One evening after getting home from work, I jumped out of my truck, and it was very windy outside. I slammed the door shut so the wind would not take it, just as our family cat jumped into the truck. The door caught the cat half way in the body and it fell to the ground and just laid there and could not move. I took it over and put it on a table and it tried to crawl on its front legs. Fearing I had broken the cats back, I laid hands on and prayed deeply for this animal. Within a half hour the cat seemed like nothing had happened to it. I don't know if this was an actual hands-on healing, but the impact this animal took from the door should have killed it.

Ben< SLIDER/Abyss: Yes, thank you. We need to remember the healing of animals, too.

LadyV< SLIDER/Abyss: Sometime when you least expect it, you may in your dreams see a blond-headed man who is very beautiful. Look for him ... that is St. Francis. How great is your love, Slider. (smiling)

SLIDER/Abyss< LadyV: I see and talk to so many people in my dreams, I don't know if I would recognize St. Francis. *S*

LadyV< SLIDER/Abyss: He has on the robes of the monk, and the color is that of sand, like unbleached cotton ... and he shines. Do me the kindness please to tell me when he shows up. (smiling)

SLIDER/Abyss< LadyV: Will do.

Creativlit< I am not sure I would want to eliminate all illness, death, unlove, etc., from the world. These are the mechanisms that provide us with the opportunity for spiritual growth. We would become spiritually stagnant. Sometimes it is hard to see this when we go through these things, and it isn't until years later we can look back and measure our own growth.

blueye< Creativlit: I agree. :)

Samanta< Creativlit: Yes, I guess so, but in my case, I learn so slow that I jump for joy into the future, and I see the world healed, full of love, light and harmony, and the stars shining above us and Our Father smiling at us, saying to us: Good for you ... You made it, didn't you?

Creativlit< Samanta: Part of the joy for me is, as I learn to stand on my own two spiritual feet, and the more I come closer to the Creator, the more I can reach back to help others who are now where I was.

Samanta< Creativlit: How can I learn to stand on my own two spiritual feet? This sounds to me important, and I agree with your whole post.

Creativlit< Samanta: It's not something that comes easily, and for most of us, I think it take many lifetimes. I had to look into my own life and why it was such a mess, and I realized in my subconscious I was manifesting my own pain and suffering. First, it was like a spiritual assignment I had predestined myself to take on. Once I accepted this and realized I chose the pain in order to serve a higher common good, I was released from the pain. Second, I knew I was called, yet I had a subconscious fear. I had to learn to trust. This is one I am still working on. Since accepting the fact and not running from the call, I now feel more at peace with myself. Life isn't magically better. I still have problems just like everyone else, but my mentality is different. Take time, time to meditate, and ask the Creator and yourself why you are where you are and where to go. The answers are all there; we have to choose and be willing to see them. You must be close because you are now forming the questions.

Samanta< Creativlit: Wow! Just a real process. I'm going to take note on this, and really thank you very much. Much, much Love, Light and Harmony to you. Best wishes, from me. *S*

FRAML< Samanta: How do you define 'my spiritual two feet'?

Samanta< FRAML: I don't know, do you? If I did know it, I would have written the whole statement. *S*

FRAML< Samanta: Excuse me, I just found the comment by Creativlit you were responding to. Now I understand that you are seeking a way to grow spiritually.

Samanta< FRAML: It's OK. I'm trying to find my way here although I live in Wonderland, but sometimes I lose my passport. *G*

FRAML< Samanta: I meant, are you thinking of spiritual in relation to healing, or a path of belief (aka religious oriented)?

Doucia< I've never really participated in healing yet, although one time I "experimented" on my friend who was complaining of a sore back. I visioned red energy around him. To my amazement not long after he realized his sore back was gone.

windi< Lately I've been doing what I call "cleansings" of people, of the earth. The visualizations of these cleansings seem to take on a life of their own. All that seems to be required of me is that I focus on whatever it is I am desiring to "cleanse".

dancer< Ben: I have found that the healing work I have been called to do works primarily on the emotions, brings on a strong emotional release in people. I have been guided to lay hands on the chakras, starting sometimes at the soles of the feet, sometimes at the root, and let the Light flow through me into the chakras until I feel a steady strong spin coming from the person's chakra in the chakras in the palm of my hands. It is very powerful. I have had a few OBEs during the process, usually followed by several weeks of tears and emotional release.

order< When Cayce was asked by a patient if he was going to regain his health, Cayce asked him what he would do with it if he did regain it. *S What does this suggest?

greyman< order: Purpose is greater than power.

order< My point in asking the question about "What are we trying to accomplish through healing" was to show that we ourselves, collectively, do not have a vision upon which we can agree on this issue. Some say we shouldn't really want to heal all, some say we should. Until there is agreement within humanity, humanity will be disharmonious, and therefore sick within itself, as a mind is sick when it seeks two divergent lines of expression and being. *S

Ben< order: I believe we don't have to wait for the rest of the human race; as individuals, we can do more and more spiritual healing.

order< Ben: As do I ... *S*

LAGONE< Ben: Would going to Lourdes be considered healing? but of what kind? faith in God's mother or in one's self?

Ben< LAGONE: Pilgrimages to Lourdes come under the heading of faith healing. That's a major subset of spiritual healing.

Creativlit< I think going to Lourdes would be along the lines of the individual allowing themselves to be healed. The actual act of going there promotes the mechanism of belief in the healing which I feel is necessary for the individual.

Doucia< Speaking of animals and healing, I think animals can also help heal us. I remember one time, I was 7 months pregnant and home alone. I started going into premature labor. I was frightened and scared but decided to lie down before calling anyone. My cat followed me to bed and lay on my stomach. Her purring soothed me. Her eyes focused on me. Soon afterwards, the contractions stopped and I felt better then ever! Moreover, whenever there is someone sick in the house, my cat is ALWAYS with them, until they are better. *S*

Yopo< Doucia: I think there have been recent studies that show folks with loved pets are healthier and tend to live longer.

order< Yopo: The same polls say happily married people are also healthier ... and that those who worship God are healthier. *S*

SLIDER/Abyss< order: I used to get two or three colds a year until I took some of Cayce's advice about carrying a good piece of metal in my pocket, so now I carry two pocket knives of good quality metal, and haven't had a cold in about two years. Could be mind over matter? :-}

order< SLIDER/Abyss: Surely could, or it could be also vibrations. Who knows? **VBS**

5foot2< Vibrations are energy. *grin*

greyman< Interesting that my little pooch lifts and heals my worn-out spirit when I get home. Funny how a lesser being can sometimes make a difference. Who is the lesser being? *G*

5foot2< greyman: Lesser being -- less stress, less pressure, less questions. *grin*

greyman< 5foot2: LOL

windi< A bit earlier, people were talking about being "good" channels for healing energy. I have found that the more one channels energies through you, the more careful one needs to be as to diet and one's emotional/mental well-being, lest one hurt oneself through a blockage of some kind. I have also found that wielding large amounts of energy leaves me famished (unlike some of the fiction I have read where earth energies leave one unable to eat).

Yopo< Ben: What do you think of situations where some people have a multitude of seemingly unrelated illnesses? Is there something that sort of "attracts" illness? Like some folks seeming to be accident prone.

Ben< Yopo: As I pointed to with that little mental tool (the 3x3 matrix), some people have multiple and apparently unrelated symptoms of physical illness from a single mental/emotional cause -- like buried guilt or hatred.

dancer< It's probably simplistic, but I find a state of gratitude to be deeply healing.

Ben< dancer: Good point. Just as holding a grudge isn't conducive to one's health, so gratitude is conducive to the health of the one who holds it.

roya< I read somewhere that there are some very special places on earth where The Divine One has ordained to have special powers: healing, blessings, and prayers and wishes to come true! What do you all think?

windi< From what I can gather, the entity often referred to as Mary, Jesus's mother, appears in places of high earth energies. Usually over or near a natural spring (or an underground spring). She almost always asks that some kind of outdoor shrine be built, but the Catholic Church pretty much uniformly denies the Lady this request and builds an enclosed building over the spot. I know Lourdes is/was a grotto. Is it still open or have they built a Church over/around the spot? Anyway, the gist is that I think she more points out a spot which has the proper healing energies/qualities, rather than endows them with any qualities by her presence. Although certainly people's faith in her, no doubt, helps their own faith in their ability to be healed.

LadyV< The shrines are beautiful. There is power there that one touches when you put your foot on the place. It is all that energy, that yearning. It is healing by just being there ... and one touches something. Maybe we touch each other in a sense. I have puzzled over that. Maybe there we are one mind truly ... to be OK ... to be healed.

Yopo< LadyV: Maybe that is it. The places are a focus of faith and hope, and the energy people bring there remains and grows.

LadyV< Yopo: That's possible. I have one that I love very much. It is a quiet little haven, and I go there and sometimes find a man that is crippled and very old. He sits quietly, and I know he is waiting. He smiles and I smile ... and there is beauty in the silence.

tess< LadyV: In my meditative state, a shrouded person (male with white hair and a calm, loving vibration) has come to me, once passing a staff for strength. Do you know who he might be?

LadyV< tess: I believe some in here speak of guides and angels. I do not know who this is. Your heart knows, however. (smiling) You are going into a very deep meditative state to observe this. That takes time and experience. Good for you.

tess< LadyV: I think that aged man is "me" ... Does that make sense?

LadyV< tess: Yes, that I understand. There are many levels to the human brain. If you go deep enough you will touch it ... it seems you have. (smiling) We had a discussion in here last week concerning this, and one of the men that works with radio waves explained it all so scientifically. There is a point where the wave line is straight without waver. He said "Where does it go?" We discussed how we can bring our minds in meditation (as our brains are energy cells anyway) to the level of "where does it go?" Then you are into the true self. Make sense? You will see much at this level, and when you return it will be integrated into your daily life. That is where you learn. You are lucky. It will aid you in many ways.

tess< LadyV: I do feel blessed with my meditative states, and unsolicited psychic phenomena that have eventually given me much peace about myself. I allow this energy to gently flow from me. But what remains a mystery for me is my path on earth, with other humans, with the illogical sufferings and stresses. What level of responsibility do I have for individuals around me? On a social level, lots; on a spiritual level, I think every person must think and grow and walk their own path. I need others to support me at times. I hope I do the same. (only for those who I am suppose to affect)

Ben< Oh ... I forgot to add my own contribution to the last invitation: as a small example of healing prayer (inspired diagnosis and prescription) see "A New Lease on Life" on my site.

Yopo< Ben: Will do so. Several classes back, you commented that strong emotion seems to be a positive factor in strengthening psychic communications. Do you think this also applies to prayer?

Ben< Yopo: Yes, positive emotion (reverent joy and caring for another) is necessary for receptive prayer, and for the act of blessing by which much healing is channeled.

Yopo< Ben: I've noticed that. "Answered" prayers in the past have generally been made in emotionally-charged states of mind. Sometimes in a sense of quiet desperation. It is puzzling, though. Creator certainly isn't hard-of-hearing, so you wouldn't think shouting would be more likely to attract attention. *LOL*

FRAML< Yopo: Just as a baby cries out to be heard above the din of noise.

windi< The squeaky wheel gets the grease? ;-)

Yopo< windi: Yep. Could be I get my own attention when I shout. *S*

windi< Yopo: Maybe you engage your higher self when you intensely pray about something, and in your focus draw the desired outcome to yourself (with God's approval, of course, if you are/were praying to God).

Ben< Yopo: In my opinion, "prayer is the heart's sincere desire" describes it pretty well. Some churchy, wordy prayers don't get through the ceiling.

order< Ben: God knows when the heart is speaking.

LadyV< Ben: I agree. Especially when the request is for healing, "pray without waver" and many do. It is the sincere heart that is heard, literally the desire of the heart, in earnest appeal. You are right, but we have to be careful; sometimes we get what we pray for. (laughing) Learned that one the hard way.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben from Abyss: That is why Slider does not go to church! Slider creates his own surroundings for prayer.

Ben< SLIDER/Abyss: For Abyss: I'm not surprised. In my opinion, SLIDER has a portable church. As I do.

Yopo< SLIDER/Abyss: Yep. Got a personal problem with churches, though I wish it were not so. I pray best out-of-doors, or in the quiet of the night.

Creativlit< I pray best outdoors myself, or just alone with a little smudge and the sounds of the drums. I always can hear the spirit no matter where I am, sometimes when I don't really want to listen.

tess< Yopo: Try going into empty churches; it's nicer then. My favorite "church" is a woody park. *S*

Creativlit< I'm partial to the Mountain-top church myself. I seem to have met a lot of the bad stuff in the churches.

Lor< Nite all. Blessings be upon you from the LIGHT, until next time. Thanks to all for sharing your respect and insights. Do each pray for beneficial inspiration that can be shared at the next session. *poof*

Aqua< Everything is alive! Even the universe itself is growing and/or shrinking. The Cause/Effect Law applies to both the material and immaterial realm. Healing can be viewed from many angles. The important issue here is to heal a patient properly; the second issue is how and where did we get the power to heal? Is it because living impeccably with practicing love, or learned from a book, etc.? We were born equipped with many 'skills' but some of them are not yet unveiled until he/she lives towards divine love practices. Do not ask for healing power from the other side: cause/effect will bind us. The universe is full of love, chairs, tables, walls, atmospheres, animals and insects, sands, oxygen, etc.. They are all one with us. What we have to do is just to realize and accept.

Yopo< Aqua: I totally agree.

Ben< ALL: Okay, dear hearts and gentle people, the second hour is up, and I need to go toes-up for awhile. Peace and blessings to each and all. *poof*

[The following dialogue was basically on-topic, but scattered through the seminar. I collected it and moved it down here so it would be easier to follow.]

order< tess: I am in Amazon, because I wanted to hear how Mr. E. Cayce was going to fair in SWC. It is always amazing what opinions pop up around subjects like this. **S

tess< order: I like fragmentation. I think there is room for all perspectives on healing, and I need to hear them as I struggle to make up my own mind.

order< tess: There is room for lots of diversity, but does 'diversity' bring Unity? It can, but often it does not. When two divergent desires, beliefs, are held at once, or at the same time, friction and disharmony are the result. Unhealthy. *S*

tess< order: No, in my meditative state, when I get close to the "higher" I understand that black is white and white is black. The "limitations" with linear thought (one choice is right) is restricted to the earth-plane. And with healing, I am unsure whether I am to become a healer or continue healing absent-mindedly as I do. I don't want the requests, I just give naturally. *S*

order< tess: In Meditation, when the mind is still, one may indeed bring opposites together as in the One. In sickness these opposing forces are NOT in harmony, something is tearing the Unity ...thus resulting in illness. In Meditation, healing may be instantaneously obtained by the lifting of the Mind to the level of the Soul/Divine Unity. I have experienced this myself. But in these times of healing, the mind is beyond any conflicting beliefs, ideas. *S

tess< order: When meditating I am not asking for healing. I just want to embrace the divine. There is no dis-harmony, just peace. *S* But on earth, I have many questions about my path and my actions when other people are involved. It is very natural to give healing to animals, and receive it from them. But humans are so complex, and often hurting. *S*

order< tess: Yes, that is exactly what my course was, too. A similarity here to be noted! Humans hurt because they are in confusion within themselves or are in rebellion against their most basic, inherent beliefs about Life, God, Good-Bad, Love-non-Love, self-others-God. *S

tess< order: Humans hurt because they have forgotten that they are god. *S*. I agree that confusion about belief can make a soul hurt, but I think "belief" is relative. A sadist who believes in what she/he is doing can sleep well at night, yet I would have a problem with the sadist, her beliefs and actions.

order< tess: This is only true *if* the sadist is not in conflict with himself at any level. How can we know how these people really sleep with themselves anyway? (chuckle) You are not weighed against the sadist beliefs, but against your own, and these are not the surface beliefs. True beliefs of soul are sometimes seen as innate understanding, urges, and the spontaneous action-reaction of what is called the conscience, which is ever awake. When this attribute of soul stops talking or stops being heard, the soul is either in Harmony with self or in big trouble (heheh) because it has tuned out it's own Soul/Spirit.

tess< order: Wading through your words, not sure I grasped it all. I think the soul and the social conscience are (or can be) two different things. Look at the Buddha and Jesus for example: both had to leave normal society to meditate. Buddha just decided to leave this plane *S* and Jesus tried to come back to society and tell others how to get in tune. (And we know what happened to him, as well as Joan of Arc, etc.). In my growth, I am very spiritual intuned/peaceful, but coming back into Canadian society is tricky because many people's actions or intent does not make sense. I went into a convent for a rest, but decided I should be on the outside. I am still walking over stones, it seems. *S*

LadyV< tess: Hummm, do you wonder why you are here tonight? Could it be that we who search as you are searching, and are learning as you are learning, do indeed support each other? I have found it so in here. This is more than just a place to chat; it is a place to share ... meaning ourselves with each other. The people that enter here and stay and take it seriously do turn to each other. I do, and it is such a comfort. I have many sharers in 3D but none as here. These are people that make changes ... quiet ones, but changes none the less. The path you seek will unfold in time ... and it takes time ... not to rush, just allow. Grace has a way to open the door ... give it time ... it will unfold as you go along.

tess< LadyV: Yes, I like the energy of this room, and truly appreciate the sharing. Even in the Henge, there can be lessons. But (honestly), I have found it difficult to find "very spiritual" people here. There are many hurting souls here. I hunger for spiritual sharing on a fairly high level that is cushioned with love and humility, but have yet to get off the ground, so to speak, with people here. How do you connect spiritually with others? (without theirs or my humanity clouding the waters)

LadyV< tess: The members of the convent are praying for you, I bet, and all are busy loving you as well. So where you walk they and Grace are there with you. That makes you not alone ... ever. Don't have to stumble ... pick up your feet, girl. (smiling)

----------

Here are some books about spiritual healers:

Sugrue, Thomas, "There Is A River: The Story of Edgar Cayce"
(Dell, first printing 1967)

Stearn, Jess, "Edgar Cayce: The Sleeping Prophet"
(Doubleday, 1967; Bantam, 1968)

Fuller, John G., "Arigo: Surgeon of the Rusty Knife"
(Pocket Books, 1975)

Brennan, Barbara Ann, "Hands of Light"
(Bantam, 1988)

Worrall, Ambrose and Olga, "The Gift of Healing"
(Harper & Row, 1965; Ariel Press, 1985)

Ceruti, Edwina, "Mystic With The Healing Hands"
(Harper & Row, 1977)

Miller, Robert N., "Miracles In The Making"
(Ariel Press, 1996)

Edwards, Harry, "The Power of Healing"
(Award Books, 1968)

Here are three used-book search engines:

Advanced Book Exchange
http://abebooks.com/

Bibliofind
http://www.bibliofind.com/

Interloc
http://www.interloc.com/

----------

13. Spiritual Healing
Session 2: Sat 19 Sep 1998

Ben< ALL: Tonight, I'd like to explore some of the subsets of spiritual healing. I believe the most common is psychosomatic healing (Greek: psyche = soul or mind + soma = body) so I will start there.

Ben< Psychosomatic illness and psychosomatic healing are both caused by the subconscious mind, through its linkage to the nerves and glands of the physical body. Thus, the source is spiritual (non-material) but the effects are biophysical.

Ben< Psychosomatic effects are normal rather than paranormal, common rather than unusual. People often discover for themselves that dwelling on certain thoughts or beliefs can make them sick, whereas dwelling on other thoughts or beliefs can (within limits) make them well.

Ben< Psychosomatic effects are often called the power of suggestion or auto-suggestion. The positive effects are called the power of positive thinking or the placebo effect. Some people have belittled these effects -- "It's all in your mind" -- but I believe this cause-and-effect mechanism is very important.

Ben< ALL: Do you have an example of a thought or belief that makes you sick? What is the antidote? Or, if you prefer, do you have an example of a thought or belief that has a healing effect in you? YOUR TURN

Ben< For example, I don't watch TV anymore, and haven't for several years, because I don't want to put garbage into my mind, and I don't want commercials to manipulate my mind. I find my reaction to most commercials is resentment, and I know that resentment isn't good for me. It releases a bunch of bothersome biochemicals that I don't want to have floating around in my bloodstream.

Willow< Ben: *s* That happens often in the work I am doing now. Some of the calls are truly heart-wrenching. I'm learning to call in Spirit to surround both the caller and myself, and help me to act from beyond those emotions and provide what is needed ... which often is simply an ear.

[Ben< Willow: Yes ... I have heard it said: "The gift of ears is better than the gift of tongues."]

Lightdreamer< When I feel "restricted" I develop respiratory problems. *laughing* I get "stopped up" in my sinuses. I feel most restricted when I react emotionally to a situation that I choose to view as limiting to my freedom to express myself.

Ben< Lightdreamer: Good illustration.

Blinder< Ben: I'm afraid that I am not sufficiently in touch with myself to be able to answer your question.

Ben< Blinder: Okay.

greyman< As to question 1, yes, of course. Antidote depends on severity. Question 2, yes, yes, yes, ACCOMPLISHMENT is a great cure for the self-indulged. *G*

SLIDER< Positive thinking will shore up the outcome of any thought or presumed assumption, even if the expected outcome is not up to one's expectations. Having negative feelings while thinking of the same outcome usually shows, also, no matter the outcome.

Amatrine< The placebo effect I was just last night listening to on tapes recorded by Deepak Choppra.

Creativlit< Not sure, but I know if I don't force myself to take time out and rest, I get flare-ups of arthritis.

SylverEyes< I am feeling iffy right now -- but then again, I'm sleepy, I got kicked in the head at martial arts practice, and I have this bruise swelling up on my leg. I don't really know if it's psychosomatic; methinks I just shoulda blocked faster. *grin* Other than that, I have been feeling sad, but not depressed, because a friend of mine just broke contact. Maybe that's why I'm feeling iffy. Ugh.

bluestar< Positive thought ... the upcoming changes, faith in God, that all things happen for the better.

Zilphia< I had a dream that was about a bad experience I once had. It felt so real it made me very upset for a couple of days no matter what I did to rid myself of these thoughts.

Aqua< To avoid such psychosomatic illness side effect is to accept that nothing is perfect and then realize its potential damages and contributions, such as why it happened to us. What caused it? ... "smoke comes from fire."

Ben< ALL: Do you ever get a lump in your throat -- like when you are suddenly called upon to speak in public? YOUR TURN

Blinder< Yep, big time. *g*

Willow< Yes ... more commonly ... pressure on my chest.

Blinder< Heart pounding like a bass drum ...

Creativlit< I don't get the throat lump, but I get really nauseous and a headache every time I have to walk into my kid's elementary school. He is disabled and I'm always in conflict with the school

Lightdreamer< I only get a lump in my throat when I'm holding back tears, but I do get a physical reaction to nerve-wracking things like speaking in public. For me it is butterflies in the stomach for a brief moment before I get centered and focused ... then it disappears.

Blinder< That feeling of centering, Lightdreamer, is it the process of connecting to, then surrendering to spirit ?

Lightdreamer< Blinder: Yes, of focusing consciousness on Source and affirming Spirit's Will and Highest Good. It is MY "placebo effect" and not quite as simple a process as I've just described, but that is for another discussion. Remind me later.

SylverEyes< You know ... occasionally, very rarely, I get flashes of pain across my heart/chest area. Kinda like a stabbing, brief pain, and then it disappears.

LEGS< Ben: I sicken at the thought of the Holocaust, and I try to avoid it ... not an antidote as much as avoidance.

Ben< LEGS: Yes. Sometimes we do need to avoid dwelling on certain things. Especially if we can't do anything about it.

[A rather long pause]

Minus< All these people and no one is talking?

Ben< COMMENT: The psychosomatic mechanism works within the individual, rather than externally, but it can be influenced by others. The key is the person's subconscious belief. This is how a shaman can sometimes heal by "removing" stones or similar objects from a person's body and displaying them to that person.

Ben< ALL: Hypnosis is one way to bypass the conscious mind (and its defenses) and work directly with the subconscious mind. Hypnosis can be used for healing, in which case it is called hypnotherapy. What do you think about this approach to healing? Do you have an example? What do you think are its strengths and weaknesses? Potential benefits and dangers? YOUR TURN

Willow< When used with integrity hypnosis can be a valuable tool; when misused it can be extremely damaging.

LadyV< Willow: I agree.

Ben< Willow: Good point. Hypnosis can be misused.

Nifty_Nada< I thought hypnosis is dangerous because it bypasses the free will.

LadyV< Nifty_Nada: Subliminal messages are easy to transmit. TV is a good tool for hypnosis ... the use of the light alone can send you out. But the law requires (I think) at least one other person to be there with you before you enter into hypnotic trance ... to protect you.

Nifty_Nada< Thanks, LadyV. Bartering the free will is too high of a price when other methods are available.

Creativlit< I haven't had any experience yet with hypnosis, but am very interested in trying it with my disabled child. Thought it might be worth a try also to recall the memory of pain relief for my pain issues.

SLIDER< All would depend on the motives of the hypnotist and the strength of the subject's beliefs in the type of treatment in question.

Zilphia< My first thought is, it would be too defenseless, open to abuse by many means. I like energy healing treatments better.

ELF!< I tried hypnotherapy for grief counseling after mother died. Didn't find it very effective. I'm not easily hypnotized.

Lightdreamer< *laughing* There's a whole seminar inherent in that one post, Ben. Okay ... starting off ... I think the use of hypnotherapy can be a wonderful healing tool IN THE RIGHT HEALER'S HANDS. Careful and effective ability to discern is very important here. Of course, that is the main weakness in the treatment ... in the wrong hands it can create as much harm as it can potentially heal -- sometimes even inadvertently through ignorance rather than ill intent. On the other hand, it can be VERY effective if both the person receiving the treatment and the hypnotist are in total Trust and High Intent -- and the hypnotherapist is well trained.

Ben< Lightdreamer: Well said. Thank you.

order< I am always wondering if hypnosis can be accredited to the application of 'will' in the individual or is in some way merely a quick band-aid for this lifetime, rather than real soul growth? (Probably a silly question but it is a real one for me.)

Ben< order: I think that's a good question. No matter how beneficial hypnosis may be -- and it can be and often is very beneficial -- I see it as a band-aid, this-life sort of therapy, because it leaves the patient dependent on the hypnotist.

Yopo< I think there's little question that hypnosis can effectively deal with psychosomatic illness, and often help with the symptoms of illnesses that have a real physical basis ... to lessen or alleviate surgical pain, for example. Might be a couple of dangers, though: removing pain that serves to warn of a physical cause that should be attended to; or removing a psychosomatic symptom without tending to an underlying psychological problem.

[Ben< Yopo: Good description of strengths and weaknesses of hypnotherapy.]

Blinder< As to part two, hypnosis is a non-invasive means of activating the body's own healing mechanisms. To be implemented, however, the person in need of healing must surrender their will to that of the hypnotist, an action that may or may not be to their benefit. In addition, by abdicating their will in this fashion, they may become dependent on the practitioner.

Ben< Blinder: Good point.

Zilphia< I like what you say, Binder. I don't think that to surrender will could ever be good.

order< Well, I feel better -- I am not the only one who questions this in respect to Will. *Smile*

ELF!< My hypnotherapist tried to seduce me!

LadyV< ELF: Hope you put him/her in jail!

ELF!< LadyV: No, I just changed therapists. Went to a woman. She did psycho-synthesis.

Aqua< Psychosomatic illness arises due to the person's ways of perceptions to outside pressure. The root of this is the 'fear'... fear of unable to be public figure, fear of not success, fear of not able to accomplish task properly, or fear of failure. If it is the person's perception, then it might help by hypnotism, but if the hypnotic process is demanding or forcing the person to accept his idea, I believe more damage will be the outcome. We must help this 'failure' person by providing the right answers to: why afraid? what worried about? etc.

*Gracie< I tried hypnosis to stop smoking. Had a nice nap and went to the car and had a ciggie. Not too big on hypnosis. If it takes my cooperation to work, why not self-heal? I trust me, first and foremost.

LEGS< In this little town we used to have two doctors who would deliver babies with the mother under hypnosis. They had lovely babies and no after-effects of drugs. Of course the natural childbirth technique is a bit of hypnotherapy as well ... conditioning therapy.

Minus< This sounds like a huge Dianetics meeting. Anyone seen L. Ron Hubbard's spirit?

Lightdreamer< Hypnotherapy can be very effective when used to bypass conscious blocks (memory blocks, usually) so underlying issues creating the psychosomatic illness can be dealt with -- getting to the source, so to say. Again, it would take the right therapist and a sufficient level of trust to be of any real value. I personally think that I would be very, very, very careful before entering into that kind of agreement with anyone ... but I can't say that I NEVER would.

Blinder< The problem I see with hypnosis is that you will never learn to surrender to spirit within yourself, if you seek to surrender to another. To that extent it can be a cop-out, so to speak.

Lightdreamer< I think that the right therapist, with right intent, can be an assistance INTO self ... to move past fear. One that would attempt to take over the process and not teach the ability to become self-sufficient in this area shouldn't be practicing in the first place.

Blinder< Agreed, Lightdreamer, but to be able to determine that level of integrity would require a high level of discernment, would it not ?

Lightdreamer< It is important to remember, too, that it has been proven that no one under hypnosis can be forced to act or think against their core beliefs and values. So, in light of that, I believe we do maintain some self-will when under hypnosis. I believe that it becomes more of a "cooperative will" situation where both act in tandem to the patient's benefit. Brain-washing, of course, is an entirely different story and requires very different techniques and a more extended period of time both in and out of hypnosis.

[Ben< Lightdreamer: Hypnosis can be used to alter core beliefs and values. That is how it usually works in hypnotherapy -- and how it can be misused.]

bluestar< I have seen hypnosis mixed with hallucinogenic drugs with extremely effective and totally unethical results. I think giving one's power to someone when one is extremely vulnerable is not the best way to go about healing oneself. I feel hypnotism should be a last resort method. I find it disturbing to see many people turning to it for so many things these days.

Yopo< bluestar: Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think effective hypnosis and suggestion necessarily depend on the subject surrendering his or her will to the hypnotist.

bluestar< Yopo: Perhaps you are right, but (imo) hypnosis works mainly with the body ... helping the mind to step aside, so to speak. But clinically, you are probably more knowledgeable about hypnosis than I am. For instance, I would not quite agree with Lightdreamer's statement ... because, although technically she may be correct, a hypnotist can arrange the setting which the subject is in, which may allow the subject to act in a certain way that they would not otherwise act .

Creativlit< I looked at hypnosis, weighing that method versus taking narcotic medications over long periods of time. To me hypnotherapy seemed more of a way for me to take the control of my own health back.

Ben< Creativlit: Drugs can be effective. So can hypnosis. But I think self-hypnosis (auto-suggestion) is more freeing than either of them.

Zilphia< Words of Power, Ben?

[Ben< Zilphia: Yes, "words of power" usually refers to the use of auto-suggestion.]

SLIDER< Ben: I agree about auto-suggestion, although I think there are times when hypnosis may be necessary to open a person to their own potential.

LadyV< In cases of abuse, in particular with children, this method helps. Children block out what the mind cannot comprehend. This is done very carefully and with legal surroundings. For adults, the will is fixed (generally). Creativlit has a good point ... it would require much trust to do this.

ELF!< There are a lot of charlatans out there. My mom went to "the" hypnotherapist in Hollywood -- he was very well known at the time. He tried to have an affair with her. AND she sent me to him. I was about l9 at the time.

Minus< It sounds like a Dianetics meeting in there.

LadyV< I feel that cults are a type of hypnotic suggestion. Many are formed in the name of healing. Many of the old-time religions were a form of group hypnosis. And so as not to offend anyone in here ... I am not knocking this, just stating that is my opinion ... the trance state induced by a strong willed leader who can manipulate people is very powerful suggestion.

Blinder< Then hypnosis can come in many different forms ...

order< LadyV: I do not think that people are so weak-willed as you suggest. If the leader is popular, it is because he speaks that which the hearts of those hearing identify with ... at least for a time.

pev< I went to a hypnotist. The event scheduled was a visit from my father, and I had become totally unhinged. At the time I was also not able to move either of my arms to a level above my shoulders easily ... tendonitis, I suppose ... and, for one of them, throwing myself out of a bus to land on the left one so as not to go to work in that year and a half I was off ... another story. Anyway, they both hurt bad. I sat in a chair, upright, took off my shoes, my watch and my glasses. She gave me a blanket ... and talked to me. I never once went "under" like I thought I would. But somehow she was able to take me to a place where I was able to relate to and connect with past pain. I screamed real loud (had to calm and connect and make friends with her doggie who was real upset afterward). But after it was over I was able to move my arms. I said to her "This is incredible, what you did." She said to me "We danced, that's all. We danced."

ELF!< Guess I have not had a lot of luck with a hypnotherapist. They have not had the ability to hypnotize me, and they have tried to seduce me. My mother had just died. I was depressed. I was a spoiled only child. I couldn't leave the house in the morning without talking to my hypnotherapist. He was actually a very kind man.

order< I do not think psychology has really been around long enough for us to determine it's real value to the soul. And while hypnosis under another is risky, self-hypnosis is not, and contrary to what the psychologists suggest, the self is not hidden away from us; we simply choose not to look. Often another may force us to look; that is sometimes good and sometimes bad. Healing comes, however, from the individual's own understanding and assessment of that which is revealed. In the realm of mind, except where the body is so disordered as to cause mental imbalance, the individual is best equipped to heal itself. (IMHO)

Yopo< Ben: Maybe there's a real question, though, about how much of a part suggestion and belief play in ALL healing practices. I think perhaps a skilled physician is using the power of suggestion all the time, often without even realizing it.

Ben< Yopo: I started with psychosomatic healing (suggestion and belief) so we will later be able to distinguish some types of healing (like energy transfer) that don't depend on the subject's belief or even knowing about it.

Yopo< Ben: Ah ... *S*

Ben< ALL: Last week, several people said something about the need for a healer to have faith and/or be pure and/or be a clear channel. I'd like to revisit that subtopic now. Someone with no faith, personally impure, with no channel at all, can sometimes heal by triggering the psychosomatic healing mechanism in a sick person. This is how many fake healers actually achieve some success. But what do we mean by "faith" and "pure" in the context of spiritual healing? What is "a clear channel" ? How does it work? YOUR TURN

SLIDER< Fake healers trigger the auto-suggestion of the person through that person's own will to be healed -- in other words, the sick heal themselves without even knowing the so-called "healer" did not initiate the healing.

order< SLIDER: This is ever the case in healing. Healing comes from the consent of the soul/Spirit, with it's recognition of and application of Harmony in/to all levels or dimensions of Self.

SLIDER< order: Just goes to show that when you believe in yourself and know you have no bounds, anything can happen!

order< SLIDER: It is my belief that one must simply get and stay in touch with that which it calls God, Higher Mind, Higher Self, and to understand and remain in accord with It to retrieve and to maintain health on all levels. The Self is not fooled by the little self which is playing in this dimension with itself. Beliefs are very important energies and each soul must know what it inherently believes, and remain steadfastly in accord with these beliefs, or change them if they are proven to be in error. In other words, if one would be healthy, one should "Be what they pray to Be." *S*

SLIDER< Let us not forget that "The Trickster" will do great things -- for a price, if some are willing to go that far?

Aqua< Satan, Genie, devils can provide us all the powers that we need from them to cure anyone!! ... but is it the way we want it? *S*

Lightdreamer< The power of suggestion again ... if the PATIENT has faith in the healer, then there is often a focus on the positive (placebo effect) and the illness abates. That is a simple transfer of energy that has more to do with the patient's willingness to receive than with the healer's ability to give. The patient is open and receives what he/she perceives, regardless of the vessel the healing is represented through. As for "faith, purity, and a clear channel" ... those are the marks of a healer who KNOWS Source and can transmit/exchange energy regardless of the patient's ability to perceive/believe in the method of healing.

Aqua< Most of us have not really understood the true nature of what is a human, yet talk about some of the human capabilities as if they comprehend 100% the contents. We human is constituent of Soul (Etheric) + Body (Matter) + Spirit being (Lights Form) ... the union is the self or personalities. As we are of 3 composition plus the union (self), so we have four energy sources to investigate. Care must be observed when doing remedy to anyone. The basis must be right, otherwise more damaging effect is caused instead of healing. *S*

pev< Who cares where or how the healing occurs? If healing occurs, isn't the goal achieved? What, then, of clarity of channel? I, personally, have been able to achieve pretty awesome acts of healing. Do I consider myself a clear channel? No ... sometimes, but not all the time, and certainly not consistently. In one of my last "healings" the guides said to me "It sometimes is of benefit to take unto yourself the other person's suffering." This went totally against everything that I'd heard before, but because they'd said it, I had to take a step back and think a little about it. And it made sense to me to a degree. We don't do this for the glory. And there is a point where the healer needs to guard themselves ... or at least to rid themselves of what they have absorbed from another person if that is the only way to do it.

Aqua< pev: The side-effects that you obtained as the result of healing others are the ANTI-MATTER ASPECTS. You can get it off easily. Find nearby conductive materials, rub your hands about 30 cm up and down for minimum 3 to 4 times, depending on how long you had been contacted, or use salty-water to clean it. *S*

[Ben< pev: Taking on another person's suffering is an ancient method of healing, but many healers have said it isn't necessary and isn't the best method. For an example of how I inadvertently took on another person's suffering, and what I did to get rid of it, see "One Way Of Healing" on my site.]

Yopo< Guessing here ... Uh, the true healer would need to have faith in his or her effectiveness as a healer ... And would need to have purity of purpose -- a desire to be instrumental in the healing process, without ulterior motives such as desire to satisfy ego, desire for material gain, etc. This might tie into "a clear channel". A clear channel must be a pure channel.

Zilphia< Pure intent for the good of all would be important, as well as open heart (in fact all chakras) to channel energy.

Creativlit< I am not sure about the physical self being pure, because I think, in the very nature of being human, that's impossible for us. More like purity of intent. Are we healing our own ego and intent? or setting our own personal ego aside and allowing the healing to come from the Creator? I may think healing my friend of his headaches is the right thing to do, but the Creator may intend the headaches as a mechanism for a greater spiritual healing.

LadyV< Creativlit: I agree with you. The spirit will sometimes pick you up and put you elsewhere if the time is not right ... that is wisdom. *smiling*

bluestar< I think Jesus often made the remark, when people would exclaim about his powers of healing, that it was not him, but the faith of the person that had healed them.

[Ben< bluestar: Sometimes Jesus said "Your faith has made you well" -- and sometimes he didn't. It is worthwhile to study the variety of healing methods he demonstrated.]

LEGS< Clear channel ... as in allowing the healing to flow directly from God through the healer who acts as a conduit and focuses the healing energy upon the proposed recipient. And pure is not mixing the healer's energies into the process, remaining in a relaxed focus, not actively sending one's own energies.

Ragsii< Although I am not worthy to speak to such a group, I believe that faith healing prompts the 85% of the brain we don't use to be used. I believe that sometime in the future we will learn to use that unused portion, and medicine, as we know it today, will cease to exist.

Aqua< Whoever can comprehend the cause (not understanding only) shall be able to perceive the truth of what is natural healing or paranormal healing or psychic healing. They are of different background skills involved. I might heal anyone using external powers or semi-pure powers ... but remember that universe is full of ordering Laws. No one can escape these Laws. Must comply and comprehend the Laws to perceive the why, what, when. *S*

bluestar< I think it is more important to the healer's overall well-being that s/he is a clear and worthy channel so as not to harm him/herself when working with powerful energies.

Ben< ALL: Good, thoughtful inputs. Thank you.

Blinder< I believe you've described two different healing methods, psychosomatic and spiritual, and while not exclusive of each other, I do feel they are distinct.

Ben< Blinder: In the first meeting of this series, I defined spiritual healing very broadly, so as to include self-healing by psychosomatic effect. I believe that each of us is, after all, a spirit (soul), so when we heal ourselves by positive thinking, that is a form of spiritual healing.

Blinder< *nods*

Aqua< Is there any effect without cause? How could there be high if no low, or heat without cold, day without night? *S*

order< Aqua: Contemplate Love ... it has no motive other than Love, it creates only Love, it calls nothing back onto itself else it would not 'be' Love. Thus, Love is not Karmic? *S*

Aqua< order: Love is part of Karmic. The opposite of Love is Fear ... cause/effect, Love/Fear, sin/alms ...

order< Aqua: The opposite of Love is not fear, but apathy. Yet Love does not set apathy into motion by it's motion. Rather it simply flows. Your assumption of karma is, I think, inaccurate. Opposites are not generated from karma, likenesses are. Thus is it said, if you kill by the sword, you will be killed by the sword. Karma is like energies returning, not opposite energies being set into motion. *S*

[Ben< Apathy is neither love nor fear; it is the absence of interest and emotion.]

Lightdreamer< I think that being "pure" and a "clear channel" has much to do with intent, too. I agree with that completely. It's a matter of willingness to move ego and preconception aside, and affirm/allow Highest Good/Will for the patient ... bringing the Light and Energy to serve whatever the soul being treated needs ... whether it is getting well, or assistance with acceptance, or with transition. "Healing" is not always a matter of "getting well."

Ben< ALL: As an example of one type of pure intentions, I invite you to see my report, "Two Acts of Blessing". It was a consciously chosen exercise on my part.

Lightdreamer< Thanks, Ben ... will do that after the session.

Ben< COMMENT: Concerning a clear channel: Olga Worrall didn't believe in reincarnation. When asked why not, she said it was because she couldn't afford to believe in karma -- the very thought that the person might have brought the illness on himself or herself blocked her healing channel.

order< Ben: The thought of Karma immediately brought the understanding to me that if I caused this sickness at some level of my being, then I could also alleviate it. So it gave me more freedom and creative power over my situation ... not less.

Ben< order: Yes, I see that understanding of karma as applied to oneself. Olga's problem was in how it applied in the person she was attempting to heal, and she learned by experience that type of thought blocked her channel.

bluestar< Ben: Perhaps if Olga had your understanding of karma, it would not have been such a block to her.

Ben< bluestar: I have to set aside any thought that the illness may have been chosen by the individual, or a result of karma, or personal sin, or the will of God for that individual. Those assumptions block my channel, too. I simply say to myself "Nevertheless, I will help this person if I can." And then I do what I can.

LadyV< Ben: That is fairness to all, I feel ... and I agree with you. Charity is being a Christian or a Buddha or whatever the label is ... it all amounts to charity ... (smiling) and charity heals.

messenger< Ben: My enlightened guru teaches that there is only one law in creation, the law of cause and effect (karma). Whatever actions you do, be it good or bad, the fruits of those actions will return to you in this life or in a future life. Only grace from god or guru can lessen or totally alleviate one's karma.

Samanta< messenger: How can grace from God or guru totally alleviate ones karma?

messenger< Samanta: Grace from god (guru) is the supreme power. Grace can instantly give the worst sinner instant full liberation if it wants. Grace can heal any sickness in an instant. To attain god's grace is the goal of all spiritual effort, because without grace full liberation is impossible.

Samanta< messenger: I agree with you; however, to have the Grace of the Supreme God in all His extent is not very usual, is it?

Ben< messenger: I agree that actions have consequences -- and so do desires that aren't acted upon. I believe most important is our development of the habit of helping when we can, without attachment to the feed-back to us. In other words: to help as we can, with no strings attached. Thus we are free.

messenger< Ben: Yes, friend, my great teacher says the same truth: do actions but have no attachment to the results of the actions; leave the fruits or results of the actions to god.

Tracey< Ben: Yes, and a wonderful gift for the giver as well as the receiver when truly given as "unconditional" help. *S*

Zilphia< I agree with Z. Budapest when she says karma ends with death; it is simply a matter of cause and effect. Reincarnation is a spiritual agreement of another sort.

order< E. Cayce did not think karma ended with death, but was often carried over to be dealt with in the next life, when it was not resolved in this one. Karma may largely be seen in one's emotional responses to people, ideas, things, and situations around us. Study emotional response if you would understand your karmic influences ... if I understood Cayce correctly.

Yopo< Hmm ... But the healer might BE an instrument of the wheel, arriving on the scene when it is time for the effect of some past event to end. This could get durn complicated. Could give myself a headache thinkin' about it. *LOL*

Aqua< The Karma concept shall lead us to reincarnation concept ... fire emits smoke. *S*

Ragsii< I think Jesus knew that within each of us, the power to heal existed. Forgive my impertinence, but I think we are all part of Jesus/God and have pieces (if not the whole) of everything God has. We just haven't learned to use it yet. We will when we "die" and become spirits. Oh, how complicated.

Creativlit< I understand your thinking, Ragsii.

Ragsii< Thank you, Creativlit. I have no reason to believe as I do, I just do. Doesn't it make sense that we are all part of the whole? We are the leaves of a tree. Without us, the tree would not exist. There is no evil (devil/Hitler/etc.), only people that are here to learn.

Creativlit< Gotcha, Ragsii: Part of the collective conscious ... can discuss it with you another time. It's a whole discussion all by itself.

order< Ragsii: I think Jesus knew that healing was dependent upon our feeling right about ourselves on the deepest levels. Thus, sometimes healing comes through forgiving another's sins, sometimes through the idea that one has suffered enough and the doctor's medicine will not take effect, sometimes just by thinking a new thought. A Spiritual adjustment. Not that healing is somewhere hiding in a secret chamber waiting to be used, but it is rather the reaction to the soul's 'rightness' with itself and it's highest Ideal.

SLIDER< order: I agree with your opinion on healing.

order< SLIDER: *S*

Lightdreamer< order: YES! That is my belief of what a healer today should model themselves after ... healing the patient's knowingness of SELF ... the inner belief ... using the energy to heal whatever is in Highest Good to be healed, whether it is the body, the mind, the spirit, and then manifesting Within from there for what is needed on the patient's individual path. "Not MY will but THINE" ...

Aqua< Spiritual healing is more powerful than psychic healing methods ... big differences. *S* JUST BE CAREFUL. USE IT WISELY. Remember always "those who sow shall reap" (this includes the healers). *S* Make sure where our healing powers are from ...

SLIDER< Aqua: You are good to remind us all of discernment in that which we seek --- for ourselves and for the others that we wish to help.

Lightdreamer< My personal belief is that the healer doesn't have to concern him/herself with karma at all if intent is placed in Highest Good and the treatment/energy exchange is allowed to manifest WHATEVER the patient needs rather than becoming attached to a specific outcome.

Creativlit< I agree, Lightdreamer.

order< Lightdreamer: Yes, heal according to the patient's needs ... this Jesus did, I think. He knew and understood spiritually where the patient was ailing, and spoke to the patient there, at that level of disharmony within. *S

bluestar< I think I see what you are saying. It is difficult, if not impossible, to heal someone who does not want to be healed. And in the case of someone who will not release the attitude which is causing a karmically induced illness, such would be the case.

SLIDER< bluestar: When I come in contact with a person that will not try to heal themselves, for whatever reasons of their own, I pray for them to see the situation they have put themselves in, and that they become aware of the self-help they can have if they choose.

bluestar< SLIDER: I do the same when I encounter such people. I think it a wise (and compassionate) path.

Ben< /topic Discussion of spiritual healing

Yopo< Ben: Re: your comments about Creator's Will and karma notwithstanding: Is it helpful to know the possible origins of an illness to spiritually deal with it? To know if its origins are psychosomatic, physical, or maybe a bit of both?

Ben< Yopo: Yes, it is important to know the type of cause of an illness, in order to fit the tool to the task. I had a whole section set up on that subtopic, but will have to let it go for tonight.

Yopo< Ben: Hope you get back to that point later in the series. It is an issue in my own life. Not always sure what comes from the outside, and what comes from the inside.

emeraldlight< Ben: What about Grace? Do you not think that Grace overrides Karma?

Ben< emeraldlight: Yes, Grace can override (and erase) karma.

messenger< emeraldlight: Yes, grace can override any karma.

emeraldlight< Then why not use Grace when healing?

Ben< emeraldlight: Grace is the opposite of wrath. Grace is essential for healing, because it is constructive, whereas wrath is destructive.

messenger< emeraldlight: The enlightened does use grace when healing.

Samanta< How is Grace used, does anyone know?

order< Grace is 'kicked' into action, as: "Forgive us our debts AS we forgive others". Grace is acquired in the act of using it, applying it to our neighbors, just as is LOVE. *S*

messenger< Samanta: Grace is used only by the fully enlightened; it's a silent language that is beyond our understanding.

Samanta< messenger: I see illness as a liberation of the spirit in its not quite real form. Do you understand what I mean? *S*

messenger< Samanta: Only through suffering do we awake from the illusion. Suffering is a spiritual push from god to come home to the reality.

Samanta< messenger: Yes, I suppose it is very true. Why only through suffering? Too much suffering in this world!

messenger< Samanta: Because if everything in this world was perfect and heaven-like, who would want to leave this world and seek god? Only through suffering caused by the continual illusions the world offers do we then think: "This world is an illusion that offers nothing but misery; how do I escape this misery?" Seeking god or the true self or enlightenment is the only way.

Samanta< messenger: I suppose that if this world were perfect and heaven-like, everybody would be God, and we would be busy Creating Splendorous Things in this universe as well as in others. (dreams?) *S*

order< We have nothing of Grace or Love or any other attribute of the One unless we ourselves give it to others.

messenger< order: Give what to others? There are no others; there is only the self, the true self who is everything.

order< messenger: I do not embrace this idea of "only me". *S*

messenger< order: You can't embrace it because you're not fully enlightened. To those souls who are fully enlightened, there is no you or I, guru or disciple; all is the self. To those souls who are enlightened, everything is their body; nothing is not them. You and I are still waves in the ocean; the enlightened are the ocean. We must become the ocean to realize that all is the true self.

order< messenger: You will have to wait for my compliance to this theory until I have reached this state of In-Light-enment, which you tell me I do not have as yet, for in this present state of what I would call In-Light-enment, I cannot agree with you. *hugs*

messenger< order: My friend, opinions will always differ, but the truth stands alone. Your personal experience will give you the truth, friend. Listen to that alone.

order< messenger: I will ... thanks. *VBS*

bluestar< Asking or calling for grace to help you discover and heal something is like asking God for a gift that God is eager to give, provided that your need/intent/desire is true/pure. (i.e., you may really wish to relinquish some addiction you have, but seem not to have the will. Grace can give you the additional strength you need.)

Samanta< Grace is what I call "to be sane in all aspects." Only Real God can do it.

emeraldlight< Grace can be invoked by any one at any time; we are all great and powerful beings; we do not heal anyone but ourselves; we are all one. IMHO

bluestar< Grace certainly can help to heal one's "spirit." I think this is what we call on when we pray for those who have strayed from the "light."

Yopo< bluestar: Uh, I'm sorta outside of the Christian context. What is meant by the term "grace"?

bluestar< Yopo: I am not even sure what the Christian definition for grace is. To me, it is the free-floating, pure energy of God that is not based on "what you deserve."

Yopo< bluestar: I would hope Creator spares me from at least a little of what I deserve. Believe Creator will. So, I ask for and believe in "grace"? *S* It's a little clearer.

[Ben< The word "grace" means: (1) an over-all loveliness of attitude and style; (2) in the sense of doing someone a favor: kindness, good-will, generosity, and giving with no strings attached; (3) in the sense of receiving a favor: thankfulness and gratitude. I believe that all these meanings are characteristic of the grace of God.]

bluestar< Yopo: Were you present at Ben's sessions on reincarnation and karma?

Yopo< bluestar: Yes. I should go back and review those sessions.

bluestar< Yopo: My point being that karma ends when the attitude that causes the karma to come into being ends ... the attitude being an "attraction" (as Ben calls it) to something (or someone). Essentially, we as beings do not change much from one life to another ... we carry ourselves with us, so to speak ... so while looking at a past life might help us see something that close up we are failing to see, it isn't as though we are suffering from something that we no longer have (i.e., the answer/cause is always in the present).

Yopo< bluestar: I remember that part of the long-past session well ... Good to be reminded. Makes more sense now than it did then.

order< bluestar: I agree. *S* Nothing is hiding from us. We just must look and then make the appropriate adjustments within Self.

messenger< bluestar: Karma ends only when you find the object which created the law of karma. That object is god or the true self.

order< messenger: Karma ends, I believe, when we not only find God, but become the pure expression to others of what we have seen in this God. Many find God only to stumble on in this plane, because they have not figured out how to continually express Godliness in this dimension of consciousness. Thus the conflicts within.

Ben< Yopo: In the parable of the prodigal son, when the prodigal came home, his father didn't even ask him what he did in the far country. That is an illustration of grace.

Yopo< Ben: Maybe he didn't ask, but I'll bet he had his suspicions. *LOL* Ah, me ... I don't think I've done too many terrible things in this life, but the trouble is, we don't always really know what we do. I see my "evil" in retrospect. Perhaps it is that way even with the worst among us in this world.

[The following post was apparently in response to a private message by Ragsii]

LEGS< So, Ragsii, that sounds suspiciously like love ... unconditional, agape, love ... what a radical you are! *smiling*

Ragsii< LEGS: Love must be truly felt by the individual expressing it. If you say it, that doesn't make it so. You must feel it inside. Of course that has nothing to do with the topic.

LEGS< Ragsii: Yes *smiling* true.

Ben< Ragsii: Your comment to LEGS about love is right on topic, in my opinion, because lip service doesn't work.

pev< When I learned Reiki, one of the things they talked about was "asking" if the healing you had to offer was appropriate. I ask and most times I get a Yes ... sometimes I get a No. Why? Who knows? My own learning, or what the person requires? But with Reiki, you sort of bear in mind that the healing will go where it needs to go. So, too, I feel is hypnosis the same sort of healing. You start out with one goal in mind: how to get through your father's imminent visit, and find yourself as an infant screaming their head off with somebody hollering in the background "Somebody shut her up!" I just don't think you can predict what is going to happen in a healing, whatever modality you use, though sometimes I think they are all (at least the new age sorts) used in tandem. The person, with what they need, will only be open to a certain amount of healing. You, as the healer, will give your all, but you will also be learning something. It's just a willingness to help, I suppose. Who's to say you can't help heal somebody of cancer or of AIDS, but maybe you can ease their way somewhat.

[Ben< pev: Yes, learning is important. To help another takes both willingness to help and knowing how to help -- that is, both love and truth.]

order< I think it is a little dangerous to hang the title of 'healer' upon ourselves. It has a tendency to puff us up while putting us in a position of seeking out and needing (however secretly) the sickly. Loving and praying with another for any and all reasons does not have the same 'temptation' or effect. (IMHO)

Yopo< order: Ah, yes. I have seen that in some I know locally who identify themselves as healers. Ego is being fed, though they would deny this.

order< Yopo: (sigh) Yes, so have I and do I see it.

Ben< order: Good point about not hanging the title "healer" on ourselves. It's like some people think of themselves as a leader, and some think of themselves as a follower. I prefer the verbs -- I can lead; I can follow, and I can choose to neither lead nor follow.

order< Ben: Yes, this is a good way of looking at this. *S*

Lightdreamer< order: I agree with the "title" thing, too ... "healer", "teacher" "student", etc. We are All One, and we are All ... all of those things in the divine equality of our POTENTIAL. And it's our choice as to what aspects of that potential to manifest, not something that ego should get involved in. The choices are the same for everyone from the first breath drawn in flesh ... infinite creative possibilities.

order< Lightdreamer: Yes, we are all capable of being all things to all people through Love, I believe. *S*

Ragsii< order: I think you have a fine point here. I think we can all become healers (and I'm talking of healing ourselves). It's just a matter of discovering that within us which will allow us to do it. To me, a true healer will show me the way to heal myself. So many "healers" become puffed up with their importance when, if we knew how, we could all do that. In the future, I think we will.

order< Ragsii: I think we will, and can now, learn to heal ourselves, too! *BIG SMILE*

~*M< Ragsii: I agree ... a healer should only be a facilitator helping to open the channels for self-healing.

pev< I met a sister of a friend, a Reiki master. Within 15 minutes of meeting me she said "You need a healing." I lay upon her table. She got as far as my elbow ... my toes began to turn toward each other. It was a really funny feeling. I couldn't see past my belly that mounded up in the way. I wanted to see what was going on. Suddenly, I'm out of my body, looking at my body and my funny-feeling feet. And I'm on a battle-ground mounded with hillocks like a gopher city ... mud everywhere ... a battlefield ... I see my body ... I see myself ... and look from my feet ... up my legs ... to my torso ... to my shoulders ... to where my head ought to be ... 15 feet away to the right I see it ... my head. I screamed louder than I've ever screamed in my life. I raised up off of that table in a VEE ... feet and head up. She said to me "I think we need some creative visualization." Two guides appeared behind me on that battlefield. They helped me to sit up. They reattached my head. In the act of sitting up I noticed that there were a great many other people sitting up at the same time all over the place. I was confused and curious. The guides said to me "You killed a lot of people. You have enough to think about right now. We will speak of this later." I broke away from the imagery and began to laugh and to cry at the same time and found, as I hauled myself off that table, that I could move my arms more easily than I could before that.

[Ben< pev: That was a nice piece of work she did.]

bluestar< re: grace: For instance, Mary visionaries report that the Blessed Lady has said that we are living in a time of "grace." I take this to me that things could be much worse for the world based on its/our karma, but God has granted us this time to make choices. So, in this sense, "Grace" is outstepping "karma."

messenger< bluestar: The sun of grace shines on all, but not all want to bask in the sun. Most cover up and seek the dark shade. To attain god's grace is very easy indeed: simply come out of the dark and shadows.

bluestar< I agree, messenger. Grace permeates the universe, but like the proverbial horse at the well, we must drink of it ourselves.

Ragsii< Damn! (sorry) -- you guys are so good!

pev< All I can do is keep trying. The only validation I get is from another who says thank you, and that hasn't happened yet. I do know the healing works on myself, though. Where before I'd be falling all over myself, sick as a dog ... now? I'm perky at work. I just keep trying to heal others, and when I go to meditate at night, I am thankful that I am reminded by the guides to keep promises I'd made during the course of the day to help in healing for folks. But, to date? Not a one of them has said they have received any relief ... but I just keep trying.

LEGS< ((((((pev))))): Thank you for the help you have given me ... a healing of emotions for sure. ((((hugs)))))

pev< LEGS: Thank you.

Ragsii< pev: What more can we do but to continually try? By trying, we till new ground. From this we learn.

pev< Ragsii: Yes, I know ... but sometimes it's like butting your head up against a wall after awhile. And then somebody like LEGS comes along to make all your efforts worthwhile. If I were doing this for money, would it be different? Who knows? Something to do with your own self-worth (perhaps for another seminar about abundance?). The guides have said to me in the past, "Your prayers are always heard." It's like I devote x amount of energy to my job and x amount of energy to family life, but there is a demand for even more than I devote to other sources to a spiritual growing ... and yet it is all, in another way of thinking, one and the same. It's like I'm on drugs and seeing things through the eyes of somebody in a different reality, and yet I'm not. It's like I can, sometimes, see the humanity in a person convicted of a horrible crime ... and this pulling back and forth hurts, guys ... it hurts ...

Ragsii< pev: Pain often is the greatest teacher of all.

pev< Ragsii: Yes, you have that one right ... pain, as a great teacher.

Ben< ALL: As another illustration of divine grace: if you can take my word for it, I know of demons who have been rescued from the darkness, converted from malevolent to benevolent, and put to work as members (or even leaders) of demon-rescue teams.

order< Ben: I have no response to that ... *smile*

Ragsii< Ben: Your last post just reaffirms my belief that there are no "demons." We are all "nice guys." Sometimes we stray to a different "learning field."

Ben< Ragsii: Oh, they were demons, all right. Malevolent. Sadistic. Destructive. But conversion is more effective and more efficient than expulsion. It is a better way. *smile*

bluestar< I love that example, Ben. I often think that "hell" and stories such as "eternal damnation" were/are stories created by Satan so that people who have come to believe they are "unredeemable" or "evil" will be unable to see a way out.

Ragsii< Ben: Who are we to expel? I think all "demons" since they were created by (?) are good. They just are here to give us certain negative experiences that we may learn from. You know that we learn from both negative and positive and both are important. If not for a demon or two, perhaps we would not learn certain lessons we need.

Ben< Ragsii: Removal of detrimental discarnates is a major subset of healing. I plan to get into that next week.

Yopo< Ben: Hmm ... You mean, by grace, Hey-Presto! and the darkest can come to shine brightly? This puzzles me. Guess my only model is of a slow ascent. Of small victories, one after another, and a new sense of orientation. Oh, there are sudden flashes where maybe I see a bit of glory, but they don't stay. Just encourage with a glimpse of what is far, far ahead ...

Ben< Yopo: Yes, sometimes spiritual change is "Hey-Presto!" -- I have seen it. But much more often it's a process of little steps and little course-corrections. I believe this is what is meant by the word "Way".

Yopo< Ben: That's my model. Each soul a wayfarer, walking a very long path, sometimes through light and sometimes through shadow. Rumor has it there is a splendid place ahead, but I gotta be content with looking at postcards and road signs. *S* It is our time and conduct on the road that makes us worthy of arriving at our destination ...

Ben< ALL: An excellent discussion tonight! My thanks. Now I need some rest. Peace and blessings to each of you. *poof*

Ragsii< Ben: Let me get in line to thank you. Why is it you are not "puffed up" on your own importance? You have the respect of everyone here, yet you continue to keep your focus. Is there a secret to this ability to remain humble?

[Ben< Ragsii: Hmmm ... That isn't an easy question for me to answer, because I don't think of myself as a particularly humble person. However, I believe that rational humility is mostly a matter of inner honesty -- not deceiving oneself, one way or the other. I'm not "puffed up" on my own importance because I have noticed that *wanting to feel important* is a desire that distorts people's lives. I work inwardly to reduce that desire, largely by remembering specific examples of people who were addicted to feeling important.]

13. Spiritual Healing
Session 3: Sat 26 Sep 1998

Ben< ALL: Tonight I'd like to look at spiritual healing by transfer of energy. Like electricity, spiritual energy flows from whatever or whoever has more of it at the moment, to whatever or whoever has less of it at the moment, provided the two are connected by a suitable conductor.

Ben< A channel is like a length of pipe or tubing, open at both ends and closed around the sides: it may also be compared to a length of wire that conducts electrical energy from either end to the other end if the two ends have different potentials (voltage).

Ben< Explanation of terms: I use the word "psychic" in reference to incarnate beings, and "spiritual" in reference to both incarnate and discarnate beings.

Ben< Physical contact can transfer psychic energy from one person to another. A hug can help. Therapeutic Touch has been felt by patients and noted by nurses all over the world. Infants need to be touched and held and loved: they don't flourish without it and sometimes they die for the lack of it.

Ben< ALL: Although this mode of healing is difficult to distinguish from psychosomatic self-healing (which we discussed last time), it occurs to me that you may have some examples in which physical contact was accompanied by a flow of healing energy. YOUR TURN

FRAML< I've experienced that one, several times. Particularly when I really needed it.

kats< I just started in my meditations to ask for healing powers. I found pain within a horse and channeled it a couple of weeks ago. Today, when I found the pain, energy went to the affected area and now she walks much better.

Ben< Here's an example: a woman touched the hem of Jesus' garment, and was healed. It might have been psychosomatic self-healing -- except Jesus felt power (*dunamis*) flow from him. He said to her "Your faith has made you well." Apparently her faith opened a channel, and the energy flowed automatically even though his intent was not focused on her. (Luke 8:43-49)

LightningBug< **curious**

Ben< Any other examples?

kats< Taking on someone's emotional pain.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben from Abyss: Slider and Flying Wolf both have the ability to heal with touch, though when Flying Wolf does it, she suffers back aches for a few days afterward. They have used this ability on me when I suffer from migraines and have really helped me.

Ben< Abyss: Yes, apparently FlyingWolf sends her own energy, and then feels drained.

shiana< I had a client a couple of months ago who came to me for Reiki as a last resort. She has vertebrae disintegrating from Osteoporosis. Anyway, as soon as I approached and laid hands upon her, she couldn't believe it was my bare hands, and asked what I was using on her (her eyes were covered). From then on she has become a regular client and has found that the Reiki assists her with her Osteoporosis ... from non-believer to believer.

Ben< COMMENT: A psychic connection works like a length of pipe or tubing or wire that can transfer energy from one person to another without physical contact. Such a connection can be created consciously or subconsciously. The next three questions will address some symptoms of direct energy transfer.

Ben< ALL: Many people (especially those in the "caring professions") have felt drained after thinking about someone they were trying to help, without knowing why they felt that way. Some have experienced "burn-out" because they were so thoroughly drained. Do you have an example of this? Have you felt drained? YOUR TURN

kats< Yesterday after experiencing a person under incredible stress, and another experiencing profound sadness.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben from Slider: I went through about three years of physical therapy after a wreck, and the physical therapist used to explain exactly what your last post talked about.

shiana< Before learning Reiki, I would be drained emotionally, physically and spiritually after a healing because I was not grounded properly and drawing the universal energy ... I was using my own instead.

ELF!< I am a family law attorney, which, believe it or not, is a healing profession. I frequently feel burn-out after dealing with very emotional clients.

5foot2< Everyday occurrences exchange energy -- a laugh, a mother stroking a child's head, even a back-rub. Energy drain I have experienced, sometimes quite intensely, however since the early 90's I find this no longer occurs -- at least not to the same degree.

Ben< Good examples. Others?

ELF!< I don't put my hands on people. I talk them through it.

earthling< Each idea or action is an energy transfer. If we admire the whole of energy, we shall be healed most perfectly. It is when we take for granted some or many or all of these amazing energy systems that our lives become shut from the inner power of creation.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben from Slider: I hope this doesn't distract from the subject, but I have found some real healing power in magnets, and this may link to being able to draw the right polarity to heal from the universal stream.

Ben< SLIDER: Okay. I plan to look at crystals and magnets and such in another session.

earthling< Mind is the conduit for all energy. What we think will happen is what happens.

kats< I have been sending long distance healing to people. One in particular. I watched angels around him doing the healing.

ELF!< Is there a difference between healing emotional pain vs. physical pain?

greyman< ELF!: Spinal cord.

earthling< Only in the mind's electrical environment of the afflicted and the initiator; either the same or different.

shiana< ELF!: I found that through Reiki there is no difference. Reiki always goes to where it is most needed. A Reiki practitioner does not direct the energy, but is simply the conduit for the energy.

Ben< ALL: Many people have suddenly felt better -- more energy -- without knowing why they felt that way. They may perceive a face smiling at them, and usually but not always it is the face of someone they know. Has this happened to you? YOUR TURN

kats< Yes, in meditations or driving down the road.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben from Slider: Sometimes I find that just by thinking of someone I feel an energy boost, and at other times I also pick up the opposite from different people. Must be like a telekinetic link to emotions that these people may be feeling.

earthling< Telepathy is used by each living thing, we especially, and as we practice our skills of imaging and faith, our abilities greaten beyond belief.

ELF!< Feeling "better" and "more energy" comes to me when I ask God, my guardian angels, and my guides, to walk with me through the day. This is something that I always do as I am driving to work.

5foot2< Recognizing the irony/humor of a situation always gives me the sensation that "someone" was smiling as I made the connection.

earthling< The whole point is vision. If we vision our lives perfect and without ailment and a wonderful ride of flowing from one thing to another, that, given a plentiful mix of faith, is what happens. It is when we do not have vision for the future, and torment with current situations, and never believe we are infinite beings of magical fire.

[The following apparently was in response to a private message.]

SLIDER/Abyss< blufalcon: Thank you for your comment. Love and emotions seem to play a big part in the healing process, and when you can visualize with your mind's eye the positive and negative polarities while raising vibrations within the subject you're trying to heal, it all just seems to fall in place.

earthling< It matters not what sect or group of belief we are in, for our ultimate faith in whole vision grants us the gifts of creation. It is actually better not to harness your life in a stereotyped organization or belief pattern, but by a pure thought and mind-utilized method of living.

Tigerlily< I often feel, especially in here, that it isn't so much what someone is saying, but the energy behind what they are saying, the intent, that makes a difference. I have often felt healed after communicating with someone; not necessarily related to what we were talking about, just their energy. I think those with less ego, more centered in the God Realm, tend to make me feel real good.

LEGS< I have definitely felt the healing from another when sent via the Internet. A healer called "hands" is quite compassionate and helps many, including my daughter in relieving some of the symptoms of her condition. I also received healing that took effect within 35 to 40 minutes while chatting at SWC when suffering with an almost-migraine and a painful shoulder, elbow, forearm and hand. I don't remember if she called it Reiki or not. It was Brigit who helped me.

Ben< ALL: Have you intentionally sent *your own* energy to help or heal another person, without any physical contact or other communication that might trigger psychosomatic healing? If so, did you feel drained? Did the other person perceive the arrival of your energy? What was the result to the other person? YOUR TURN

earthling< Next: can you feel it coming back again?

[Ben< earthling: Yes, many can feel energy coming into them, but it almost never comes back from the person one is trying to heal. If you feel energy coming into you, that means you have connected to a source of energy.]

kats< I sent bands of love from me and bands of angels to a person this past week. She reported that she felt remarkably better. But the problem is an emotional one and is still going on, so more will be needed.

Ben< kats: Did you feel drained?

kats< Not with that one. But with the two I mentioned earlier (one stressed and the other sad), yes. I had to go back and be quiet with God for awhile to get centered again and recharge.

shiana< I do send distant healing without informing the recipient, although I always ask their higher self if they will accept it, and I find no drain to self. And yes, I have talked to them later and they tell me how much better they are feeling. It was like a warm kiss and suddenly they were feeling better ... at least those that admit to "unusual" incidents; others will just tell me they are suddenly feeling much better. *S*

earthling< All someone has to do is say they do not want me here. I will go. I instill my thoughts to the unwanting never.

[Ben< earthling: Are you here to instill your thoughts in us? Most of us are here to share what we have experienced and learn from each others' experiences.]

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben from Slider: Yes, I have sent energy to many that haven't known they were on the receiving end. Have received mixed results but mostly positive and it gives me a feeling of inner peace.

FRAML< I guess I was doing a form of energy transfer today at the Red Cross. Talking to folks on the phone, recruiting them to fill positions on hurricane disaster relief teams.

5foot2< I have referred to myself as an energy director. I send/forward energy constantly -- to adjust the energy of another closer towards balance.

earthling< I heal most every second of my life. It's all in the perception that we generate.

Tigerlily< I pray for people, but I wouldn't tend to send healing energy without their permission.

earthling< I feel that we are not at a high success rate when our own lives are not whole to the light.

Tigerlily< earthling: We are all works in progress, though. A compassionate response is always a step in the right direction.

earthling< Where does thought energy come from, the kind that heals, or whatever? It seems to sorta come from nothing. I mean, you know when you make a thought, or create a dream, what has produced that.

shiana< If I am sending without verbal permission, I always ask their higher self if they will accept. If I "hear" a No, then I will not send, for there are times it is not appropriate.

Tigerlily< That's good, shiana. :) My higher self says Yes ... and my lower dickens says Yes, too.

Ben< ALL: Okay. There is a pattern in my line of questions that I'm hoping you will follow. I'm trying to move our consideration of spiritual healing from abstract to concrete, from philosophical to pragmatic.

earthling< How do we heal?

Ben< COMMENT: When the sender's purpose is purely to benefit the recipient, the energy is called "positive" because it helps and can heal the recipient. What the sender does is called remote healing, healing at a distance, the act of blessing, or casting a blessing. But to the degree the sender's purpose includes any personal agenda, it is less helpful and less healing, and more an attempt to manipulate the other person.

greyman< Ben: Very difficult to heal a loved one because of that. Need to continue meditating on the solution.

earthling< So we are "creators"

[Ben< earthling: Yes, we are creators in the sense that each of us can generate and transmit energy, but that isn't all there is to spiritual healing.]

Ben< COMMENT: In this context, prayer can be defined as an attempt to connect to a source of healing energy. This raises the question: To whom or what is this type of prayer directed? If the connection isn't to a source of energy, no energy flows. If the energy isn't positive, the result isn't helpful or healing. However, instead of investigating the many theological implications of these observations tonight, I'll leave that for another seminar and proceed to the next question.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben from Slider: Excellent comments.

Ben< ALL: Prayer and the laying on of hands may trigger psychosomatic self-healing in the recipient, and/or transfer energy from the healer to the recipient, and/or relay energy from another source through the healer to the recipient. From what we have discussed this far, what do you think might be expectable indications by which we could distinguish between these modes of healing: (1) psychosomatic; (2) direct energy transfer; (3) relay of energy from another source? YOUR TURN

shiana< When I am doing a Reiki treatment, whether a full one or a "quickie", I always feel the transfer of the energy through me. As I heal I am healed. Again, I am simply the conduit and I open myself to the Healing Power of Reiki, the universal life force/source.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben from Slider: I think that for any healing to be beneficial to the receiver, all three instances you outlined have to be combined, so as not to have a detrimental effect to the sender.

5foot2< Why do we need to distinguish? It's all about energy. I might add: generating negative energy is sort of like mixing poison with no gloves on; you are bound to get some on yourself.

Ben< 5foot2: I believe we need to understand how these things work, as well as we can, so as to fit the tool to the task, and also because this understanding sets a framework for understanding other spiritual dynamics [like negative energy].

5foot2< Ben: I have been coming here over a year and done my best not to come off sounding like a "crazy" -- but that may all go down the tubes now. All my life, I have had truths -- things I just knew -- such as: our concept of time isn't right, energy is all, similarities are more important than differences, and something about magnetic fields that I still haven't figured out, personal responsibility for the energy we generate on a daily basis, and recognize the energy similarities in others. We seem to prefer differences; I truly feel it's time to see similarities ... the word energy can replace so much -- i.e., God, the original energy.

[Ben< 5foot2: Yes, I believe that learning more about energy of all types and the similarities in how energies work can be a key to much greater understanding.]

kats< Direct energy transfer will drain. Relay of energy from another source will keep a continuous flow. Psychosomatic? Not sure. Although I found that when I send bands of Love Light to encircle the person, I am not drained. In laying on of hands, energy is built up and then distributed, no drain.

[Ben< kats: Good point. If energy is built up first and then distributed, distribution does not leave the healer drained dry even though it does drain a lot of the built-up energy, as Jesus felt when the woman touched the hem of his garment.]

earthling< We should gain energy from healing another. It is all thought, so we should bask in the glow of love we have allowed our minds to project.

Yopo< Hmm ... Maybe direct energy transfer would leave the healer with "low batteries". In relaying, the healer might somehow feel an energy flow with no subsequent sense of diminished personal levels. Don't know what psychosomatic healing would "feel like" to the healer.

Ben< Yopo: If the person self-heals psychosomatically, the healer feels no energy flow at all.

bluestar< Psychosomatic healing might be considered activation or inspiration for activation of a person's own healing energy activating mechanisms.

earthling< bluestar is so far closest. I see this large energy source over and in our heads, and when we allow what is in our heads to project the ability to another, then that is healing, merely allowing our powers of telepathy and faith to instigate the healing process of realization in other people.

blufalcon< Ben: Concerning your question of expectable indications: I think that if one is trying to see what method of healing is best, and looking for signs of such, the healing won't be working all that well, whether one heals with hands-on energy transfer or distance healing or whatever method one chooses. Healing WILL work through the manifestation of healing power from the ether directed to the subject ... only with selflessness ... LOVE.

shiana< It is my experience that direct energy transfer (from one's own energy) is not a healthy thing to do. It is better for both the healer and the recipient to receive the Universal Life Energy, higher source, or whatever you prefer to call it. There can be no negative "emotion" in it when it is from the "source".

Lor< shiana: I tend to believe as you stated, also.

shiana< Lor: It is my opinion that when we use our own energy we tend to do so with a hidden agenda or even a not-so-hidden agenda, plus we look for credit, etc., because "Look at what I have put myself through for you". When you use the other source, you can take no credit, for you are only a conduit of energy ... but that is only my opinion. *s*

Ben< shiana: Many care-givers are sending their own energy without realizing that is what they are doing, and they are drained without knowing how it happens or what to do about it. Hence my line of questions. *smile*

shiana< Ben: Agreed ... and I had to learn how to make the differentiation and understand why I couldn't "connect" to the other source before it became second nature. *s* I'll be quiet now and listen. *s*

SLIDER/Abyss< shiana from Slider: By your words you follow an honorable path.

bluestar< I think direct energy transfer healing is somewhat akin to magic and/or sorcery. If you use your own energy, are you not by definition being "manipulative?"

Lor< bluestar: I have witnessed direct healing (energy) transfer that was effective and not manipulative; however, in this case the healer picked up the pain of the patient.

Ben< bluestar: Giving of our own energy with no strings attached is the act of blessing. A pure blessing has no manipulation in it. For example, see "Two Acts of Blessing" on my site.

bluestar< By "manipulation" I meant in the general sense ... as in the sense of a masseuse "manipulating" a person's muscles in a body massage, manipulating in the sense of desiring a particular outcome.

earthling< Each procedure and action we do in a day is a manipulation of energy, your job, what you eat, what you think, we must go to the inner power to do in it a virtuous way, free from evil happenings to us and others.

[Ben< bluestar, earthling: Yes, there are several meanings of "manipulation". In this case, I was using it in the sense of trying to influence another person in order to get something one wants. I'm sorry I didn't point this out earlier: it might have avoided some of the semantic misunderstandings during this meeting.]

bluestar< Perhaps care-givers are drained because they become entangled in the "outcome" of their efforts. When utilizing spiritual energy to encourage healing, it is more "Thy will be done, not mine" ... "Thy" meaning the will of the Divine.

Tracey< (((bluestar))): I can identify with that one, dear ... more than you know ... thank you.

earthling< One who heals is healing one's self. You are all talking about drain and it is only a very harsh impurity to a successful enlightenment path. Choose your beliefs well, they are your total healing plan as well as judgment of yourself.

shiana< I think, when we start trying to determine the outcome of the healing, then we lose contact with source, and our own agenda causes us to start to use or direct transfer of our energy.

Tracey< (((shiana))): Yes, when we try to control it, it loses it's potency. I agree.

Lor< I am of the opinion that the motivation of the healer is rather important, in any case.

Yopo< That direct energy transfer idea raises some judgment issues. A healer who is in a "low energy phase" ... Might he or she do harm in some way? Perhaps take energy, when intending to give it? Or am I taking your analogy about relative "energy potentials" too far here?

Ben< Yopo: Good point. If the healer's energy level is lower than the person's, the healer may inadvertently draw energy from the person. That is one facet of the spiritual dynamics I'm outlining.

Yopo< Hmm ... That could put a whole new spin on doctor/nurse burn-out. More hazards maybe than just poor decisions.

Tigerlily< Yopo: I was involved with a very intelligent and persuasive "healer" and what did not work in the end was that he felt somehow that he was "helping" me. There was an imbalance of power. It felt icky, really. I learned something, but more about the subtly of energy and power in supposedly spiritual people.

kats< So, Tigerlily, he was trying to manipulate you?

earthling< A blessing is a thought manipulation. On the specific scale, it may take the realization of a need, and a knowledge of the possibilities, and create a plan, and with faith enact it. If this is not manipulation, then please kill me.

Lor< earthling: I'm sorry you feel that way, for I have known definite benefits of sending blessings to someone that were not manipulative (i.e., against their will).

earthling< Lor: If you didn't manipulate your thoughts and focuses, then I'm sorry to say your message didn't get through.

Lor< earthling: But you did not ask Source whether my message got through or not. I agree with shiana's last post. My request to send blessings as appropriate to aid a friend in need did not presuppose any outcome that I may have imagined, for I counted on the healing source in the LIGHT to know better than I what and how to send whatever blessings were appropriate.

earthling< Manipulating as in "desiring a final outcome" -- that would be the same definition of vision, wouldn't it?

STARX< We are manipulating our reality with our thoughts every minute. There is nothing wrong with that ... it just is.

earthling< STARX: Sure obvious to the avid observationist. : )

SLIDER/Abyss< earthling from Slider: Any thought that manifests itself would be considered manipulation. What one must learn is the discernment of the positive and negative effects of their thinking.

earthling< right, right.

Ben< earthling: Concerning manipulation versus blessing, see my previous post to bluestar.

STARX< I think the "identification" with the healing is where the change of energy can happen ... to the point of draining. It seems to require being an empty vessel for the energy to flow in and out. The second I identify with it, the "healing" seems to stop ... the energy becomes sluggish at that point ... then I know I'm getting off on it rather than allowing it to happen.

bluestar< STARX: good point re: "identification." I think you are exactly right.

Ben< ALL: As an example of healing by prayer and the laying on of hands, with an insight as to how it works in some cases, see "This Is My Prayer, Too" on my site. For a one-page explanation of some healing techniques based on experience, see "On Blessing The Sick."

Ben< SUMMARY: What I have been pointing to in this discussion of non-physical connections and energy transfer is a metaphysics that need not be mysterious. In our present knowledge of how physical energies work -- especially electricity and hydrodynamics and field theory -- we have some very close and testable analogies for some of the ways in which spiritual (non-physical) energies work.

Ben< /topic Discussion of healing by transfer of energy

Yopo< It is not good to think on outcome? This energy need not be channeled to a specific end?

earthling< Control is ultimately a needed thing in our mind, sure. I sense you are really meaning FLOW, but control is what must enact the flow of goodness and pure love for all things; before that it's controlling our thoughts to make ourselves a infinite perception, and gain the abilities to 'control' ourselves to sense energies of all types, ethereal or physical, invisible or internal.

shiana< Yopo: It is my opinion that the energy from source knows better than I what needs to be healed, so I act simply as a channel for it to do its work.

Ben< shiana: In order to act as a channel, one has to make two connections: one to a source of healing energy, and one to the person to be healed. How these connections work is what I believe we need to understand.

shiana< Ben: Agreed ... to truly connect we must learn first how to do it.

5foot2< shiana: What if "source" gives you the ability to sense the energy of an individual and "know" what adjustment in their energy is required?

shiana< 5foot2: When I am doing a Reiki treatment, I can sense where there are injuries, illness and energy imbalances. I will lay my hands in those areas, but I never "direct" the energy. If I am guided to, I will inform the patient of what I am finding and sometimes messages will even come through to be delivered, but I still allow the flow to go where it feels it is needed. By deciding that I am being given this information to direct the energy, I would allow ego to come into play, and to me that is not a good thing. *s*

Yopo< shiana: I'm probably (HA! Understatement) unaware of much in this area. Energy may have certain qualities? "Healing energy", for example, goes where needed without conscious outside direction? I was thinking of something like an aggressive tumor, for example ... One would simply send energy into that system? I'd sorta figured it would need to be channeled with intent. Otherwise, it might be used to the opposite end intended.

bluestar< Yopo: I agree with shiana, and would add, thinking on the outcome, or even desiring a particular outcome, might not be harmful, but being unduly attached to the outcome can be detrimental. Better to send the energy free of strings, and as Shiana put it, "the source knows better than I what needs to be healed."

Yopo< bluestar: I was thinking more of the "energy transfer" thing than the "energy channel" mode. But even there, I sorta thought it would be a matter of clearly expressing one's intent to The Source, Creator, whatever. Pardon me if I'm belaboring this point. Trying to get it clear in my mind.

Zarastan< Yopo, dear, that may be the area of confusion: "trying to get it clear in your mind." It's the mind that gets in the way. The mind wants to control. The mind doesn't trust. If you run the energy from Source through your heart and then out your hands, the heart knows and trusts this divine healing energy has infinite wisdom and knows what we (at the little us conscious level) don't know.

Yopo< Zarastan: *S* Hmm ... That bears consideration. My rational mind has stood in the way of my "seeing" before. Still often does. Suppose it might be a block in other ways I don't yet suspect ...

[Ben< Zarastan, Yopo: Yes, but I wouldn't be too quick to disregard our rational minds. It is necessary to temporarily stop our thinking in order to do some types of spiritual work, but I believe the mind is the best tool we have, and we need to learn how to use it better than we do now.]

bluestar< I think that sending blessings is more likely the utilization of spiritual energy in a general sense (even if to aid a specific purpose) and would not think of such as direct energy transfer. You may give your individual blessing, but the source of the energy for the blessing is greater than the individual, yes?

Tracey< ((bluestar)) *S* Yes ... it starts with the reason behind the energy.

[Ben< Tracey: I initiate the act of blessing with my own energy. Then I pray that my blessing be amplified, through me and directly from Source to the person. And then I step back to leave the person connected to Source, free of my connection.]

Dayvid< When one realizes the only purpose you are here for is the betterment of others, then healing is within the hands of compassion.

earthling< I not gonna manipulate any more thoughts in here, if one cannot even realize the neural society in our minds.

Dayvid< My predominant concern is not to disturb, for if I stop an old one from crossing a busy street, I may have only prolonged the suffering.

[Ben< Dayvid: Hmm. If the old one is hit by a truck, is that how you would explain your non-action to his or her grieving grandchildren?]

Tracey< ((Ben)) Sometimes the connection is emotional and becomes healing and/or spiritual because of the feeling. I have been able to help ones I am close to in spirit ... but do not know how I did it. Does that make any sense, dear?

shiana< ((Tracey))

Ben< Tracey: Yes, many have helped others without knowing how they did it. However, the converse is also true. and that's another reason to understand what we're doing.

Tracey< ((Ben)) Yes, dear one ... I agree. That is why I have never tried to just "send" if it was not someone I was already connected to. That seems to just be natural ... dunno about that part.

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben from Slider: You mentioned covering magnetics and crystals, will it be in this topic of discussion or one of its own?

Ben< SLIDER: I'd rather not go into other types of energy tonight. It's a huge subject. And I keep hoping folks will look at the types of energy they themselves have available.

Tigerlily< I have learned from this tonight.

shiana< I believe there are times when the illness carries an important lesson and the true healing is found in allowing the healing or source energy to help give the person the strength and wisdom to learn whatever lesson the illness is there to teach. *s*

Dayvid< An old fire burns low, herbs allowing to glow ... feeling well, observing deep ... the light of the night drowns my life ... pinks and purples ... ask not why ... just once ... accept.

bluestar< Yopo: I think you can intend and ask ... just remember to add a trailer (as long as my request is in keeping with God's will). I have asked this way since I was a very young child, and I find a great many requests granted (even small ones. :-) However, if you are too specific in your efforts (i.e., the tumor example), well, you may miss something. It is better to allow the energies to work "as they will" (see shiana's post on Reiki laying of hands in a particular place but letting energy flow freely rather than restricting it to one place) because the tumor may be caused by something else (and probably is). Allow the energy to flow to where it is needed. In addition, sometimes a physical healing is not to be, and the energy you activate might be better served if allowed to work on what it is most needed for.

shiana< Yopo: Before I discovered Reiki, I healed "soul to soul" and found the experience very tiring and usually with unusual and unwanted results ... and I always was attached to outcome. Since I've quit thinking about what I want to have happen and just allow the flow of energy through me rather than from me, I find that as I heal others I heal myself ... no exhaustion and better results for others, too. *s*

Ben< shiana: Your last post is the type of example I was looking for. Thank you.

shiana< Ben ... *blush* ... thank you.

Zarastan< Ben: Yes, shiana has those great answers because she is the channel of the divine healing energy, and it just bubbles out of her lips (and fingers?)! *g* One part of my healing prayer/affirmation is that this person release all inharmonious energies, fill with the divine healing energy, and open to that place in himself where he is already exactly aligned with his highest good and the highest good of all.

Yopo< "soul to soul" ... meaning of that eludes me. I have no experience of myself as a healer. Only as one who sometimes prays that healing be done, and believes that it works. Don't really think of myself as a "doer" in that sort of thing. I shall think on it some more.

shiana< Yopo: Soul to soul means that I would go into trance and allow/have my soul touch theirs to find out where it hurt (so to speak), then I would proceed with making a connection or loop from them to me, clearing the "negative" energy, drawing it back into me and then transforming this energy with my own ... and that is a really "bad" and dangerous way to do it ... so please don't try to do it that way. ((hugs))

Ben< ALL: Here's a thought to consider: letting the energy "work as it will" and the faith that it will find what needs to be healed and heal it, assumes that this type of energy is intelligent, perceptive, benevolent.

LEGS< I like the stressing that it should be benevolent. *s*

Tracey< (((BEN))) ***VBS**** Yes, that is so, and that is why it works. *S* And I have never really thought that I am doing it. It just seems to be an electrical charge that comes across the board, and then the other one says they feel much lighter. Dunno ... I do not study all this stuff ... just am me.

Ben< Tracey: But electrical energy isn't intelligent, or perceptive, or benevolent. Those three words are qualities of living entities, not impersonal forces.

Tracey< ((Ben)): I am not sure I can separate the two. I just know that when I love someone ... which is not exactly hard for me to do ... I can send healing love and energy to Fix stuff ... just cause I want to and care. Dunno what you define it as, dear one ... just know it works. Love to all of you. ****HUGS***

shiana< Ben, Tracey: Agreed ... it is. I like the saying, "Let go and let God" ...

Tigerlily< Yes, and this means that a "healing" might not mean a complete cure. It just might be comfort, relief of pain for a brief time. The little things are grand, too ... so the result does not have to be "perfection".

Zarastan< Tigerlily: Sometimes true healing is painful. I've seen situations where phase 1 increased the pain, then in phase 2 the pain was GONE. In one workshop a man who thought all this was BUNK was first put into crisis and horrible pain. Then a few minutes later he was visited by two tall beings who were standing with him, over his body, discussing it and working on it. When he "came back" he felt no pain at all. When I asked him who the beings were he looked defiantly around and said with tears in his eyes "They were Angels!" Everybody cried! That miracle came from ... where? Certainly I didn't do it! Couldn't have IMAGINED or planned it if I had tried. Totally divine!

Ben< Zarastan: Thank you. Excellent example.

shiana< ((Zarastan)) That was beautiful! Thank you for sharing that story with us! ((hugs))

Tigerlily< (*(**(*(Zarastan)*)**)*) Very wonderful story ... thanks for that!

Ben< ALL: Note: angels are entities -- intelligent, perceptive, benevolent entities ...

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben from Slider: That just goes to show you that the benevolence is surely there and we must show that we care enough for someone else to ask assistance as to complete a healing process. As Jesus said, "Ask and Ye shall receive".

Ben< SLIDER: Yes. This is what I'm pointing toward. "Ask and you shall receive" means to ask *someone* -- not some *thing*. One has to ask an entity. It does no good to ask anything of an impersonal force. That would be like praying to a flashlight battery.

Tracey< (((Ben))) Flashlight battery ... *S* You are something, sometimes ... LOL

SLIDER/Abyss< Ben from Slider: What if it is "batteries not included"?

Zarastan< Slider: You two are being silly now! hahaha!

Yopo< Ben: Yes, I was thinking along those lines when I thought of energy ... Wondering if energy channeled into a diseased system without directing intent might be harmful ... Might be utilized by the disease process.

[Ben< Yopo: Yes, energy can be utilized by the disease process, which is why energy (transferred or relayed) isn't all there is to healing. Intelligent, perceptive, benevolent use of the energy is more important than the amount of energy sent.]

WiloVision< The carrier of the healing current is selected, then, by the intent of the healer?

Ben< WiloVision: Yes, the intent, will and purpose of the healer is essential. As a quick counter-example: hatred doesn't heal.

shiana< WiloVision: Not sure what you mean?

WiloVision< shiana: If energy is impersonal and energy is requested ... are the intentions of the one who asks for it what determines whether or not it is helpful or disruptive?

shiana< WiloVision: Ben nailed it when he said hatred never heals ... so, yes, the healer's intent must be to heal in whatever way the recipient most needs it.

Ben< WiloVision: Yes, the intentions of the one who asks for it do determine whether the energy (and entities) that come are helpful or hurtful.

WiloVision< Ben: You make a distinction -- energy and entities -- and I think that is sorta important.

Ben< WiloVision: I was hoping you would pick up on that. *S* I believe it is *very* important. It will be the basis for my next seminar.

Yopo< With prayer, my assumption is that energy is directed from Creator ... Prayer for healing being a sort of heartfelt "petition" or "request" ...

shiana< Yopo: When I channel the energy, my only intention is that it will heal at the level that is most needed by the recipient. I also know that the energy comes from source or God or whomever you would call it, and because I "know" I am channeling a loving energy, it simply is, for my "channel" is not open to any other kind. Does that make sense?

[Ben< shiana: Yes! Excellent description! And if we do happen to contact a source of any other kind of energy, we need to feel it very quickly and close our channel.]

Yopo< shiana: Maybe I HAVE had some experience with that, come to think. Recall once holding my hand over the hindquarters of an old arthritic cat, trying to soothe pain ... Hand became stiff and ached for a while after. I'd forgotten ...

Tracey< ((((YOPO)))) That is it! Just the caring does it. *S* See? ... cool ... huh?

Zarastan< Yopo: I want to acknowledge how open you are being here, to new information. This is a SOUL learning you are allowing now, and I believe that you are unlearning something you have practiced for many lifetimes. It's hard to release the old manipulative and controlling patterns. But this business of DIRECT energy transfer (and often taking on the disease of the client) is why the crones/healers of old were so bent and deformed. Kind of worth thinking about ... *G* (smooch on cheek)

Yopo< Zarastan: Gotta be open to new info. Old info no longer works ... *S*

Tigerlily< Yopo: Ain't dis da truth!

shiana< I also believe that once we have been allowed to become a true channel of the healing energy, we are called upon on a daily basis to share that energy; i.e., yesterday on my way back to work from lunch, I got stuck in traffic for an hour due to a very serious auto accident where they finally had to direct the traffic through the ditch to get us through. Rather than sitting there fuming because I was stuck in traffic and not able to get back to work, I spent the time sending the Reiki energy to all those involved in and affected by the accident. I felt it was why I was given the gift; I didn't have to know them to know they needed the love of that energy ...

[Ben< shiana: Amen. Thank you for posting this.]

Yopo< Ben: Uh, sorry about my tardiness tonight. *LOL* drumming circle night. By the way, our drumming circle provides a context for some of our local healers to work at its center. Second or third round is always done with an intent to focus healing energy into the center, where several Reiki practitioners and folks of shamanic inclination surround any of the circle needing healing.

Ben< Yopo: Your drumming circle sounds like a group of entities focusing their own energy, and the energy of any entities they are connected to, on a common point for a common purpose. That is how a lot of spiritual dynamics actually work.

Yopo< May be so ... Drumming serves many ends, I suppose, for different people. Mechanism is interesting. We begin with sage purification, then a centering prayer/meditation, loosely based upon Lakota tradition. Folks begin drumming softly, with varied rhythms, each focusing on his or her own beat. After a time a group rhythm emerges, set by no one in particular. Your mind is carried on your own rhythm into the collective rhythm, and there is a sort of ego loss as you merge with the larger thing. In that altered state, folks do meditation, prayer, healing, journeying ... The experience can sometimes be very powerful.

[Ben< Yopo: Yes. To me, the key here is "altered state" (of consciousness). There are many ways to enter an altered state, and there are a variety of altered states, but personal purpose is crucial because it determines the altered state one enters.]

Ben< ALL: Goodnight. Peace and blessings to each of you. *poof*

13. Spiritual Healing
Session 4: Sat 10 Oct 1998

Ben< ALL: Tonight I'd like to expand on our previous discussion by considering some of the roles of entities in spiritual healing. I consider this topic important because impersonal energies can harm as well as heal unless they are properly applied.

Ben< For example, Jesus was often charged with healing energy, like a capacitor charged with electrical energy. "And all the crowd sought to touch him, for power (dunamis) came forth from him and healed them." (Luke 6:19) But this exquisite little scripture doesn't ask the question: Why did this energy heal rather than harm? The result would be quite different if they touched a charged capacitor.

Ben< ALL: What do you think? We call it "healing energy" but "healing" refers to the effects. What causes healing energy to be so different from other types of energy? YOUR TURN

Slider/Abyss< The only thought that comes to my mind would be the length of the energy waves that pass to the person being healed. Maybe this is too technical, but seems that it would have to match the vibrations of the energies it is trying to heal.

Ben< Slider/Abyss: Wave length or frequency matching might be needed for a healing outcome -- but how could that happen?

Slider/Abyss< Ben: One must be able to tune to the vibrations of the entity they are trying to help and have a loving caring connection.

TimG< But Jesus wasn't in tune with the woman. She touched him without his knowledge and was healed.

bluestar< TimG: Are you referring to the woman to whom Jesus replied "Your faith has healed you"?

Ben< TimG: Good point about the woman who touched the hem of Jesus's garment. Apparently the energy in him was already predisposed to heal rather than harm.

Yopo< Uh, perhaps it is energy that carries intent? Perhaps intent itself is a sort of energy.

Ben< Yopo: Energy that carries intent ... interesting.

Aqua< Energy itself at this level is direct manifestation of the Origin Pure Particles, which are directed, focused and vibrated at specific wavelength.

Lor< Aqua: I'm sorry, I am not aware of what Origin Pure Particles are. Are these some new type of physical structure that have been identified?

Aqua< Lor: It is the common basic particles that yet to be identified. Quark, Gluon, Muon are not yet the basic particles. Anti-matter is close to it but not close enough. Eventually if all these particles found in CERN physics Lab be breakdown further into its tiny part then that is the origin pure particles I am talking about. One day we shall "find" this particle. By then many previous miracles or magical phenomenon shall be understood by its nature...

TimG< Aqua: The Axion may be what you are looking for. Its existence is theoretical but it's believed to be the most prevalent particle in the universe.

Aqua< TimG: The CERN (Swiss based research lab) are still experimenting to breaking the anti-proton into smaller particles. They will be able to do it but need more investments in technology. The current measurement equipments are not fast enough to record also to generate the known particles into higher speed to collide thus breakdown to smaller one. Hope they will find it soon so then there is no more debate on spirit/soul/reincarnation, etc.

TimG< This energy sounds different than Reano.

bluestar< I am not sure I think that Healing energy is very different from other types of energy.

Katherina< Ben: I would think that it is heart-felt energies on a intention to heal.

greyman< Ben: This may suggest that somehow the "soul" can direct the purpose of directed energy, either to harm or heal?!?

Ben< greyman: Yes, the observable results do suggest that the cause of these results isn't random or accidental.

Yopo< "Energy" is an abstract idea, really. It isn't really something that I can easily conceptualize. I mean, we usually think of it in terms of the things we see it do, or of a potential to do something. Guess that's why intention seems relevant. To me, "healing energy" would necessarily imply a directing intention.

Slider/Abyss< Yopo: I would think that intent with compassion would fit the description of healing energy, but then there is the case of: What would one do with their life if they are healed, and who is to make that decision?

bluestar< Everyone seems to be pretty much in agreement here, or so it seems to me. It isn't the energy that is different; it's the intent that determines the "flavor" of the energy.

Amoona< I have witnessed many times how remote healing worked, with people sending Reiki and other healing energies, and the recipients were not aware, and actually did not even know the healers.

TimG< Energy such as electricity has two basic properties which are similar to water. It is measured by the pressure and the flow. In this story Jesus is building up the pressure. When the woman touches him the pressure is released and flow begins. Energy itself can be useful or destructive depending on how it is used. You can't say it is either good or bad.

Lor< Intent does not really seem to fit the example of the woman being healed by just touching Jesus, since he did not intend to heal her, but merely noticed that something had flowed from him. I do not believe that the "energy" is like the energy we study about in physics classes, but something rather different that science has yet to discover.

Yopo< Lor: I was just thinking about that. Perhaps Jesus was the embodiment of a loving intent...

bluestar< Yopo: "Jesus as the embodiment of loving intent" ... beautiful. :-)

Lor< Yopo: Perhaps the energy or whatever it was that healed the woman had been generated for healing someone else. Wasn't Jesus on his way to help someone that was ill or dying? (I don't recall the incident too well; perhaps someone can enlighten us.)

FRAML< Lor: Yes. He was on the way to the house of a friend whose daughter was dying or had just died.

Ben< Okay, good responses. Thank you. I'll post my own opinion next, then move on to the next question.

Ben< I think healing energy is generated (created) in and by individual entities. In other words, entities are the batteries. Just as we can generate positive energy by positive thinking, so healing energy is personal energy, generated and given by benevolent incarnate and/or discarnate entities -- and often pooled by a group of entities focused on a common benevolent purpose.

Ben< ALL: Some people don't want to be healed, because they are getting something they want from being sick. Caroline Myss points this out in one of her videotapes. What do you think might be done, or should be done, in such cases? YOUR TURN

bluestar< Pray for them to receive experiences which will help them to realize that they are feeding their own illness.

LightGrrl< Send healing energy to the underlying cause of the illness? The subconscious desire to be ill?

Slider/Abyss< I feel those people should be made aware of any hardship they are causing to those around them, and shown enough compassion to realize their mistakes, and then put to the test to heal themselves or go the other way. This may seem harsh to some, but sometimes the shock treatment is the only way to wake someone up.

TimG< Help in identifying the need and the fulfillment.

Amoona< We must pray for the best outcome for them in their particular circumstances, and pray that one day they realize they have created their illness or addiction or misfortune to prevent them from going within, getting closer to spirit ... which is what they are really afraid of.

Ben< Good comments. Caring thoughts. And yes, sometimes "tough love" is called for. Others?

EarthFriend< I work in a wildlife Rehabilitation center. Much healing is needed there, but information is hard to come by. *S*

[Ben< EarthFriend: Good work. Spiritual healing can be applied to animals.]

Samanta< Ben: Good evening! What kind of energy is used to heal? Love energy?

[Ben< Samanta: Hello. This question is what we've been discussing.]

EarthFriend< Ben: Healing is a gift, then, not something that can be learned? Sorry, I am new at this. *S*

Ben< EarthFriend: Healing can be a gift (or a set of gifts); however, healing methods can be learned and improved with practice.

EarthFriend< Thanks, Ben. *S*

Yopo< It wouldn't seem proper to me, to try to heal someone against his or her will. Perhaps one might gently try to reveal the psychological knot to the person.

Amoona< Yopo: Good comment.

Lor< Yopo: In Spirit Releasement Therapy, the patient sometimes finds that the cause for resisting healing (or some other action) is not coming from their self, but from an attachee, as Dr. Baldwin calls them. Hence, they are unwittingly resisting what may be better for them.

Ben< COMMENT: Past life regression therapy and spirit releasement therapy can often help in cases where the person "doesn't want to get well." However, each of those therapies could be the subject of an entire seminar series.

LightGrrl< Go for it, Ben! I'd love to attend those as well. :-)

Amoona< Ben: Have you had experience with these subjects? I am researching past lives and self-hypnosis.

[Ben< Amoona: Yes, I have some experience and training in these subjects.]

Slider/Abyss< Ben: That would be subconscious, emotional memories manifesting as physical ailments. Would that be an intelligent decision on the entity's part, to hold this from a past life, or something that just manifest itself unbeknown to the present living entity?

[Ben< Slider/Abyss: Good question. Some past-life problems are brought forward because the entity clings to them, but they almost always manifest unbeknown to the present conscious mind. That's why regression therapy is needed, to search the subconscious memory for past causes of present problems.]

Ben< COMMENT: Many people desperately want to be healed, or to have a loved one healed. This fervent desire sets up a market for malpractice in which unscrupulous people can offer healing in exchange for something they want. Thus, those who seek healing or accept offers of healing from anyone who offers it are often preyed upon by quacks, charlatans, snake-oil salesmen, and deceivers of all sorts (incarnate and discarnate).

Ben< ALL: How can you discern and avoid being deceived by incarnate charlatans who offer or promise spiritual healing, and/or discarnate charlatans who offer or promise spiritual healing? YOUR TURN

FRAML< Inquire as to their source of healing energy. Do they charge for it? Are they looking to help or just make a profit and establish a reputation and clientele? Also for discarnates: Do they offer power or is healing their purpose?

LightGrrl< FRAML seems to have the right questions to ask in this case. I've not yet experienced discarnate healers.

Ben< FRAML: Good criteria for discernment. Thanks. Others?

Aqua< A true and truthful Spiritual Healer need not to identify him/herself to the patient. He can send his healing in many ways and forms ... not only healing energy but his thought or prayer or charisma is quite enough. Example: once people hear that this spiritual healer is famous and has healed many patients, the patient who believes in his/her power shall already somehow more relax and assure that his illness is 'better' although he is not yet in touch with the healer. Furthermore, the true spiritual healer does not need any return nor any kind of appreciation from his/her patient; he/she just does it because this healer feels that it is an obligation to help his/her own brothers/sisters (us).

Ben< Aqua: Yes, "no strings attached" is always a sign of a true healer and not of a charlatan.

Lor< I understand that patients actually heal from within, with sometime critical help from medical specialists, but the actual repair process is akin to or related to the growth processes, which are gradually being understood.

Slider/Abyss< Lor: You have to throw in a good dose of healthy living, abstain from any vices, and shield yourself from man-made or environmental hazards or hazardous substances. Seems there is a catch 21 here. *S*

TimG< Slider: Would this mean you could not heal if you were sick yourself?

Slider/Abyss< TimG: I would say that one needs to control their environment to sustain the level of health they want to obtain.

Ben< ALL: Big promises are often the hallmark of a charlatan. But the proof is in the results, not the promises. That's another set of criteria for discernment.

Yopo< My first thought was that the genuine article would want nothing in return for the healing, but there are perhaps effective practitioners who do this for a livelihood. Maybe the con-man's give-away would be that he asks a high price of desperate people. Or maybe too much self-promotion would be a tip of the hand. Discarnates... I haven't a clue.

Ben< Yopo: Yes, there are those who make their living as spiritual healers. Like medical doctors, some of them are in it for the money (or power or prestige or whatever) and some are not.

Yopo< Ben: For some reason, I'm uncomfortable with the "value for value received" idea in this area. Intuitively. Not sure just why...

Ben< Yopo: Yes, value for value received (quid pro quo) is a symptom of exchange, feed-back, strings attached. It isn't an indication of unqualified love.

FRAML< I have seen a couple of 'healers' in here, who offer to help folks and say, "We'll discuss my fee afterward".

Lor< I suspect most medical doctors are "in it" partly to help patients and partly to make a living so they can continue helping people and provide for their families, retirement, etc., as most of us have had to do or are doing. Albeit, some are more unscrupulous and uncaring than others.

TimG< Lor: I'm more inclined to believe doctors are in it for the Porsche in the garage.

Lor< TimG: Some apparently are, but I've known several that would gladly sell that Porsche if such action could help save one of their patients. I tend to trust the latter type more than one who has not shown me his true inner caring. That is, "By their actions, you shall know them"!

Yopo< Lor and TimG: I've encountered both sorts. You can tell when a doctor is attempting to "connect" with his or her patient, treating a person rather than a complex of symptoms. I think that's the sort that qualifies as a "healer" rather than a knowledgeable technician. That sort seems to work on multiple levels...

TimG< Sorry to get off the topic. I'm sure there are as many motives as there are people.

Ben< TimG: Motives can be grouped in types and categories. Those with similar motives tend to act and react similarly.

FRAML< TimG: I know a shrink who is in it for his Miata and house payments. And a medical doctor who enjoys doing family practice and regretted having to stop doing baby deliveries because the insurance rates got unaffordable for him, unless he wanted to double all of his charges for all services.

Amoona< FRAML: Yes, you have taken us to the root of the problem: the insurance companies.

FRAML< Amoona: Yes, and the rates are also driven by lawsuits filed when something goes wrong, or even if the patient doesn't think the doctor did what he should have done. Regarding obstetrics, most folks have the opinion that, if their baby isn't just the way they expected him to be, it is the doctor's fault. Even if it is something genetic that is inherited and the doctor has no control over.

Amoona< FRAML: Sounds like you must work in the obstetrics dept. like me. We have just had a case where the baby was born with shoulder dystocia, a common problem at birth (the shoulder gets dislocated during the birth), but in this case, the family were videotaping the big event, and because they heard the cracking sound of the shoulder on the tape, they are now filing a suit against the Doctor.

FRAML< Amoona: No, I just recounted what my brother-in-law the doctor has told me.

Amoona< Sorry to divert slightly from the topic, but I have seen good Doctors and friends who went to school to be of help to others, such as Psychologists, who gave up their practices because of the red-tape imposed by insurance companies.

Caelum< Amoona: It is against the law to help someone facilitate death, but an insurance company can deny treatment ultimately causing a death; it doesn't make sense to me.

Amoona< Caelum: Insurance companies are running America. They are not accountable. As a foreigner arriving here years ago, I noticed that many people had this fearful attitude. As I looked into it and researched more, I noticed that the Media promotes this fear and that there is an insurance for everything, which leads people to believe that the worst will happen. I had not been exposed to this in Europe; that is why a red light flashed in my mind: fear is being promoted. But, thank God, many are now aware of this and are overcoming this fear, by joining together in love, as we are tonight.

Ben< ALL: Edgar Cayce's readings usually began, "We have the body of ..." The plural "we" is significant because it indicates that he wasn't working alone. Arigo worked with a team of discarnate doctors. Barbara Brennan's book "Hands of Light" has drawings of discarnate entities working with her to repair the aura and spiritual body of her client. QUESTION: What do these observations imply about human life after death? or: What do they suggest about your life after death? YOUR TURN

FRAML< The ghost of the German doctor who worked with Arigo apparently felt he had unfinished business; however Arigo was connected to God and apparently this doctor was linked in as well. Thus a discarnate who had neither risen to the light nor reincarnated. (By choice?)

[Ben< FRAML: Yes, a doctor who wanted to continue his work after he died.]

FRAML< Interestingly, I was discussing Arigo with a lady in the auto repair shop just this morning. She was reading John Fuller's book about him.

Slider/Abyss< Ben: I've come to believe for myself that everything is done through group decisions through discarnates during and after physical life. As for spiritual life, I feel the spirit will exist as long as it wants to.

Yopo< Seems to suggest either the trajectory of our lives continue after our deaths, or that our lives here reflect a path we were already on before our arrival. Hmm...

Ben< Yopo: Good comment on trajectory. Both before and after this life.

LightGrrl< Ben: Not sure what to think of this. I guess I thought that after death we rejoined the One Consciousness, so the concept of individuality kinda falls away? Or not?

Ben< LightGrrl: Individuality isn't necessarily lost or set aside or swallowed up. The discarnates I know are very much individuals. However, individuals do work together in teams.

FRAML< LightGrrl: Those souls who rise to the Light can return here on search and rescue or healing teams. They are in the Light or Heaven, yet are individuals who band together to help others according to the will of God. Thus are members of a team. At least in my experience and understanding.

LightGrrl< FRAML: Sort of like the spiritual Red Cross? ;-)

FRAML< LightGrrl: Yes. (I spend occasional weekends working for Red Cross.)

Ben< ALL: From these and many similar observations, I have come to believe that there are many interesting job opportunities on the other side of life. *smile*

Aqua< Friends: "Aqua" is the name given to this unity of human corporeal body plus the Human Soul plus the Spirit Being. The Human Soul itself is the psyche when it is as a live human; when this Aqua passed over (dead) then my psyche is called the Soul of the human; the spirit itself is of light, being not in the shape of human in etheric forms. Many people have regarded this soul as spirit being. The one reincarnated is the human soul, while the spirit living in me now was not the same when I was in my previous life!

Samanta< (sshh! Samanta, nobody sees you, nor can hear you. Looks like you're a ghost. Everyone here is performing very well according to their beliefs, not yours. You're a student, remember? bye, dear. *s*)

Aqua< LIVE, LIFE and DEAD is the nature life cycle. Everything has its own life cycle and life-span. All is merely process ... process and nothing more. The Universe itself also in process. *S*

Ben< /topic Discussion of spiritual healing

Ben< What about opportunities for spiritual healing on the other side of life?

Slider/Abyss< Ben: To be free of want of earthly material possessions, I wonder just how much good could be accomplished? Blessings to all.

Ben< Slider/Abyss: Yes, if one is free of desire for material possessions, and also free of the inherent limitations of physical time and space, much good can be done -- and there is much good to be done.

Slider/Abyss< Ben: I think if we all learned to live with a little more humility, grace and compassion, a lot more could be accomplished right here on earth.

FRAML< Slider: Target! Cease fire! (Translation: I agree, you have identified the solution, nothing else remains to be said.)

Aqua< Slider/Abyss: How true ! ...humility, grace and compassion... I like that.

Ben< Slider/Abyss: Yes, true. Life on earth could be a lot better than it is. But I think the overall progress in that direction is glacial in velocity. And some always seem determined to go the other way.

Slider/Abyss< Ben: The glaciers are melting. *S*

Ben< Slider/Abyss: *smile* Perhaps some of the human glaciers are also melting. At least I hope so.

Slider/Abyss< Ben: So true.

Lor< I sense healing energy is different from physical energy, as defined by scientists, as spiritual light is different from the kind of light I read by or receive from the sun. I have experienced both types of light, and may have with regard to healing energies, although I'm not always clear about when the latter occur. I sense others' prayers may be involved in some of my healing events. I feel sure that is so with regard to some of my thoughts and mental drives.

Ben< Lor: Yes, I find healing energy to be quite different from physical energy. Spiritual light is similar to physical light in how we perceive it, but I don't find any evidence that spiritual light is anywhere in the electromagnetic spectrum.

Yopo< Ben: That comment about spiritual vs physical energy is very intriguing.

Lor< I am not exactly clear how spiritual light is different from healing energy. Somehow, the latter causes cells to repair themselves and thoughts to be directed toward better ideas and concepts. Does anyone have something to add to this?

Ben< Lor: Good point. Spiritual light can heal and cleanse. Some healers use different colors, but I believe warm white spiritual light is best for these purposes.

Slider/Abyss< Lor: I would term that the power of positive thinking.

Lor< Slider/Abyss: I sense positive thinking enables (empowers) our subconscious to cause our body to repair itself, sometimes. However, it is not always able to do whatever is needed. Sometimes medical specialists can do things the body can't do by itself -- sometimes they help, sometimes not. Positive thinking is clearly desirable but not always sufficient, methinks.

Slider/Abyss< Lor: The point I was trying to put across is that all the help in the world, whether it be physical, medicinal, or spiritual, will not come together without positive thinking. *S*

Aqua< Lor: Energy is direct manifestation of the Origin Pure Particles, which are directed, focused and vibrated at specific wavelength. As human we have four sources of energy supplies in hand. These are from our Human Soul energy, our Spirit Being energy level, our human corporeal energy level, and the union of these three source energy that is the spiritual energy (when we are tune in one completely (unified as human-soul-spirit ) ...

Lor< Aqua: How do you know that "Energy is direct manifestation of the Origin Pure Particles" and that humans have four sources of energy supplies: Human Soul energy, Spirit Being energy, Human Corporeal Energy and spiritual Energy? What evidence can you provide as to what distinguishes each?

Aqua< Lor: Water gives different energy; fire radiates heat as energy; ice or snow emits cold energy ... why? They are of different molecular structures, so the vibration from each is unique. Ditto to human soul, human's spirit being, etc.

Ben< ALL: A curiosity question: would any of you like to work the discarnate side of spiritual healing after you die?

Slider/Abyss< Ben from Slider: 10/4 Navigator! *S*

Ben< Slider/Abyss: Roger that!

Aqua< Ben: Yes, I will do when I have the chance on the other side, perform the same as while human. Anyway, my soul is my psyche, so it is the same continuation.

Amoona< Yes, I would like to continue healing from the "other side".

FRAML< Ben: I think I'd prefer search-and-rescue.

Ben< FRAML: Yes, search-and-rescue is also an excellent set of spiritual job descriptions.

FRAML< Ben: I figure I've got some background since I was an artillery forward observer ... perhaps just being on the scout team for them.

Yopo< Ben: Are you recruiting? *S* Hey, I can think of no happier revelation than such total clarity of purpose. Here, things are often very murky. Imagine you'd have plenty of takers...

Ben< Yopo: Well, I'm not exactly recruiting ... more like inviting -- "There's good, challenging, rewarding work to be done -- y'all come!"

Caelum< Ben: Don't we all have to do as we are assigned in discarnate? Do you think there is a choice?

Ben< Caelum: There is always a choice, because we have free will. For example, we can choose to obey or disobey any assignment [and any commandment].

Yopo< Ben: Not sure what a suitable afterlife vocation would be for the likes of Yopo. You know how I said it's often murky down here? Right now, my vital agenda seems to be to see clearly. To see through illusion and appearances, to something shining beyond... Uh, any openings for window-washers? *S*

Ben< Yopo: Yes, there are job opportunities for window washers. The type you describe are all aligned with the Spirit of Truth. Others are members of cleansing crews.

FRAML< Yopo: We both could rescue all those dead souls from the Chicago and Baltimore cemeteries who come alive and vote every 2 years.

[A newcomer started a completely off-topic conversation which has been deleted.]

Ben< ALL: Just for info, I don't try to focus the discussion during the hour after the seminar, but I do delete off-topic conversations before I post the transcript on my site.

Aqua< Ben: Interesting idea to arrange such seminars, May Angels assist you always.

Ben< Aqua: Thank you. *smile* Namaste.

Amoona< Ben: Thank you for all your caring efforts here. It sounds like you have some fascinating stories to tell. I hope you have some of your experiences posted at your site. *S*

Ben< Amoona: Yes, my site is a chronological sampling of 30+ years of spiritual experiences and insights.

Yopo< Ben: I thought this was a very good session tonight. Topic was great, discussion focused, and a lot of new questions came up for me. Thanks again for all the time and energy you put into this!

Ben< Yopo: You're welcome, as always. *smile* Thirty years ago, I led a retreat for Methodist ministers in West Texas. One of my topics was "Job opportunities on the other side of life." About a dozen of them and I sat up all night talking about it, got another cup of coffee, shaved, changed clothes, and continued with the retreat.

Yopo< Ben: Thirty years ago? You've been on your path for a long time. *S* I've wondered: How are your ideas generally received in a more traditional Christian context? To tell the truth, it was the lack of openness to such discussion and exploration that made me lose interest in church and organized religion in general.

Ben< Yopo: If I'm not careful what I say in a traditional Christian context, I'm likely to be damned to hell and kicked out of the assembly. I learned that fifty years ago.

Yopo< Ben: That's sad. Never have really understood that way of thinking and acting. Seems it is something hardwired into the human brain, though.

Ben< Yopo: A tendency to look down on others may be hardwired in some human minds, but specific prejudice is either karmic or taught or both.

Amoona< Many of us here found on our paths that organized religion was too constricting for us, so we turned away from it, but in doing so, let us not reject the basic truths the religions promote ... one being that there was a Jesus, a loving representative of God, who gave his life for us.

[Ben< Amoona: Amen!]

PrairWarur< Ben: So you know traditional Christian context? Lets hear it, you won't get kicked out of this room. :-)

Ben< PrairWarur: Yes, these are pretty good rooms for heretics and mavericks.

Aqua< Ben: Have you noticed how religion can be used to condemn people ... for example, Salman Rushdie of England?

[Ben< Aqua: Yes, I have. And religious persecution has a long history. However, in this century, by far the greatest persecutions have been waged by the devotees of state socialism -- both of the political "left" (Communist) and the political "right" (Fascist, Nazi). State socialism can be described as a godless organized religion.]

Ben< /topic open

TexasBelles< Ben: In my belief, personal I suppose, it seems that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit minister to us in the manner we require to strengthen us ... in answer to our question/prayer or in the way that will most guarantee our continued welfare. The omnipresence is pervasive and pleasing to our hearts if we but accept the answers we are given to our prayers ... realizing sometimes the answer is that the time is not right, the yield is unripe for the harvest, the goal is not yet in reach... it is a waiting and growing time. A cleansing and clearing of intent must come first, perhaps ... but always the answer is there.

Ben< TexasBelles: Well said. I believe the Kingdom of God consists of all those (incarnate and discarnate) souls who align their free will with the good-will of God, so I usually think of the Holy Spirit as plural -- Holy Spirits -- that is, God's angels who did not fall, and all the ex-human souls who have risen to the Light and continue to serve as angels.

Aqua< TexasBelles: "The Kingdom of God Is Within You" as stated in Luke 17:21.

PrairWarur< "In My Father's house are many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you, for I go to prepare a place for you." John 14:2

avalon< PrairWarur: *G* the post of John 14:2 reminds me of my childhood. I would always imagine these rooms that have only three walls ... the front would be open for people to go back and forth to see one another ... and the light would be bright yellow there, filling all rooms and filling the sky with it. *S*

PrairWarur< avalon: I sure hope that my house is next to yours so we can visit one another often. :-)

avalon< PrairWarur: That would be very nice. *S* And as in my vision, my door will be open. *S*

Aqua< PrairWarur: Please be informed that ROOM 222, 223 and 224 have been reserved for 222, Aqua, and serena ... thanks. *S*

Yopo< PrairWarur: "In My Father's house are many mansions" is a most provocative passage. Some think it refers to reincarnation.

PrairWarur< Hebrews 9:27 "for it is appointed for men to die once..."

Yopo< PrairWarur: Respectfully, *S* one of the reasons I don't take scripture as, uh, scripture... Open to many interpretations. A couple of quotes for any occasion. And often disagreement becomes divisive. I take good ideas wherever I find 'em.

Aqua< Yopo and PrairWarur: Is it true that reincarnation was inscribed in Bible verses, Matthew 17:10-13 and Matthew 11:13-15 and also Matthew 14:2?

PrairWarur< "and He answered and said, 'Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." Matt. 17:12

Caelum< This scripture stuff is getting uncomfortable, kinda like fire from a dragon's mouth.

PrairWarur< Caelum: So sorry to make you uncomfortable. Please accept my apologies. I was just trying to answer a question. Shalom. :-)

Aqua< PrairWarur: Does that mean John the Baptist was indeed prophet Elijah?

222< PrairWarur and Aqua: I think he was.

Roanna< Ben: I kind of like the Lucifer legend.

Ben< Roanna: I haven't met the gent. But I have encountered some discarnates who said they work for him. They were not nice folks...

Roanna< I know some discarnates who claim to be the people or heirs of the people about whom the Lucifer story was written. No actual Lucifer, as far as I know, just a legend that has some historical roots.

Ben< Roanna: The discarnates you mentioned apparently are ex-human beings. The ones I was talking about never were human, never incarnated, and are astonishingly malevolent.

Roanna< Ben: Real big time demons. What do such creatures want with ordinary humans like ourselves?

Ben< Roanna: Food. For a quick glimpse, see "Screwtape" by C. S. Lewis. My own experiences have convinced me there's more truth than fiction in that book. Also note in his forward how he got those insights.

Roanna< Ben: I don't believe that. I just don't think we are interesting enough for big time demons to take an interest in us.

Ben< Roanna: Suit yourself. I was attacked by some of them this last July, during a remote search-and-rescue in which I didn't expect to encounter them, and took several days of intense prayer to get over it.

Roanna< Remote search and rescue ... do you mean in the physical world somewhere out in the boonies, or something else?

Ben< Roanna: Not remote as out in the boonies. By remote I meant through other people rather than a direct connection. I did a dumb thing: I casually traced a series of connections from one person to another to another, without first praying for and awaiting the arrival of a team of angels. The person at the end of that series was in deep, serious trouble (almost possessed), and lived near a place that was infested with major demons. I should have known better. I do know better. Ah well, confession is good for the soul and bad for the reputation. (rueful grin)

Roanna< I don't do rescues, Ben. Mostly I travel as a neutral. Meet some rather interesting dead folk that way. Once or twice met something that may not have been a living person in the last few centuries, but they were just plain different and more helpful than not.

Ben< Roanna: Traveling in the earth-plane is easier and safer than excursions into the darkness, but I do some heavy-duty work, sometimes, to free people from demons. My point is, I know better than to do it alone.

Roanna< Ben: Let's just say I've got friends in low places. There are probably lower places yet, but I don't know them. Don't have a map, I'm afraid.

[Ben< Roanna: I have something like a map. See "Paradigm" on my site. I have found that it helps me organize my thinking on spiritual subjects.]

Ben< ALL: (and sundry) Goodnight. Peace and blessings to each of you. *poof*

[I would normally delete this off-topic conversation, but I decided to move it to the bottom of the transcript because so many people claim they channel Jesus and so many discarnates claim they are Jesus.]

paradise_son< OK, everyone, I am here to channel Master JESUS for all to share with. Are you all ready?

FRAML< paradise_son: We aren't doing channeling tonight. Thanks anyway.

222< paradise_son: Go for it.

paradise_son< GOOD EVENING MY BROTHERS AND SISTER. IT IS I JESUS THE CHRIST COME TO BE WITH YOU AND ANSWER ALL YOUR QUESTIONS PERTAINING TO YOUR GROWTH AND AWAKENING

paradise_son< 222: You may ask me your first question ... the one pertaining to your relationships right now in your life.

222< Okay, paradise_son: What about my relationships? Where am I heading?

paradise_son< 222: You must understand that your relationship with another is a reflection of the relationship you have with yourself. You are attracting people who are afraid to get too close.

222< Thanks, paradise_son, I will let someone else ask a question now.

paradise_son< I love you, 222, because you are the Christ as I AM.

paradise_son< ANOTHER QUESTION FROM ONE OF MY FAMILY?

Caelum< Isn't there a private room just especially for channeling?

Walt< Jesus Christ: I am a Student of the Healing Waters. I found the Waters of the Light/Blood, and next will claim the Waters of the Flesh or Manna that you taught about in mystery. Can you say anything on this subject in mystery?

paradise_son< Walt: My dear brother of the Light, hello and welcome. Before the fall, you were all able to manifest directly from the invisible all your needs and desires. I had come back then to show a few of the divine powers through love that are available, and I wished to show others their own potential when becoming at one with God our Source.

222< Great to hear, paradise_son!

paradise_son< Hello, 222, and welcome back to the Amazon, girl.

222< paradise_boy . . . male on this end!

RunningRiver< paradise_son: Would you be willing to channel for me?

paradise_son< Yes, RunningRiver, I am channeling.

222< paradise_boy: Then JESUS should know that I am in a MALE body! Or is JESUS being a comedian tonight?

aelus< 222: LOL

serena< LOL, 222, heheheehhehe

Ben< 222: Bingo! Good shot! *smile*

aelus< LOL! Thank you, Jesus, for the good laugh.

222< Did I upset JESUS? :( Oh well, who is the next Christ?

Caelum< 222: You can't upset Jesus; not the one I know, anyway!

Ethanacy< rotflmao ...

aelus< OK, next Jesus!

13. Spiritual Healing
Session 5: Sat 17 Oct 1998

Ben< I had hoped to wrap up this series on spiritual healing tonight, even though we have barely mentioned some of the major sub-topics, but when I reviewed the first four sessions, I saw enough loose ends for this meeting and the next.

Ben< Some of the sub-topics mentioned in this seminar would easily require an entire seminar (series of sessions) -- for example, "Past Life Regression Therapy" and "Spirit Releasement Therapy" -- and of course, spiritual healing ties into even larger subjects, such as "Energies" and "Entities" and "Paths".

Ben< Tonight I'd like to look at the healing of memories, as the basic need behind a large number of approaches to spiritual healing. I'll try to focus the discussion in this sequence: (1) conscious memories, (2) subconscious memories, (3) past-life memories.

Ben< ALL: Do you have an example of a (this-life) conscious memory that used to make you sick? If so, why does that memory no longer make you sick? Did you do this yourself, or did someone help you? YOUR TURN

TimG< Final Exams! I don't take them anymore.

Ben< TimG: Hah! Excellent! However, I still have nightmares about final exams sometimes.

shiana< Ben: I knew there was a reason for me to be here this night. Last summer I was sexually assaulted by my brother-in-law. I became ill enough two days later to have to go to the emergency room at the hospital. As I released the pain of the emotional hurt and my guilt (which should never have existed), I have found that I have healed physically as well.

Ben< shiana: You released the pain of an emotional hurt, even though that pain was justified by what happened, and then healing occurred. Likewise with guilt that wasn't justified. Excellent.

shiana< Ben: At first I internalized the pain and guilt. It had to find a release ... and it did, physically. I then started on releasing the pain, and understanding that there was a purpose behind the incident that would lead to something far more important and beautiful than the occurrence.

Slider/Abyss< Ben: The memory of the taste of Southern Comfort the night before I shipped out to go overseas. It doesn't bother me anymore because I stay away from it.

RunningRiver< Ben: My guilt for being angry with my mother used to make me sick. I have since her death slowly healed and accepted both our paths on my own. Like I do most things!!

Peachbird< Ben: I used to deal with chronic depression in a way that was not productive. I allowed the voices in my head to keep stressed and in a constant state of depression. I could not function over memories of the past connected with mourning issues. Through the teachings of Eagle Eye I have learned to stay focused in the present moment and live my life in peace and joy. *S*

TimG< Peachbird: Read Ben's paper ["Phobia"] about the castle wall and the helpful phrase "Be here now".

Peachbird< TimG: Yes, it is a thing like the "Be Here Now", but I was unable to accomplish that from an intellectual standpoint. Eagle Eye's Way helped me internalize those concepts.

Poweress< For me, I have noticed a pattern in my past where I would notice my health being affected when I felt guilty or responsible for having done something I regretted. Not really a specific event coming to mind.

blueye< I had a memory of abuse that was making me sick. I had some help from a dear friend to help me get through this period. With her prayer and my learning to forgive, I am well.

emeraldlight< I had one centering around my seventh birthday, on which my father came home drunk and tore up the house, then passed out on the couch. I no longer feel sick with this memory, having taken a "big picture" view of the situation and realizing that it was my father's illness, not mine, that caused the events of that evening.

Peachbird< emeraldlight: I know the pain of dealing with memories of a drinking father. *S*

waifhawk< A memory of the missionary hitting the small hawk child merely for speaking what she called a "devil tongue". I had to begin to re-learn the language that was beaten from me in order to not feel the sick-ick at the memory.

Running_Bear< I think your conscious does make you sick. I have found that many of my friends get sick due to thinking about certain incidents that they went through, so they psych themselves into getting sick.

JamesRD< I hated my mother and felt no remorse at her passing, as I was beaten almost daily as a child and could not forgive her. I never saw her even once attempt to give love in any way. I found out that when she was passing she asked the Lord for forgiveness for the way she treated her children, and thus it was granted. I found this out but three months ago. If the Lord can forgive, then who am I to judge ... as I know not what drove her to what she had become. I have forgiven her and have found solace in doing so ... it felt like a very large release.

Peachbird< {{{{{{{{JamesRD}}}}}}}} .... *warm smile*

shiana< JamesRD: That is beautiful ... and it reminds me of what a woman said of me when I was sent to jail many years ago. She said it to those who were standing in judgment of me: "God has already forgiven her ... how can I do less?"

Katherina< I had a very rocky childhood with my mother. I was very hurt by her. After her passing, many years later, I found that if I looked past the hurt and saw her situation, I then was able to forgive.

Ben< ALL: Excellent examples. Thank you. And please forgive me for not being able to respond to them all. My typing isn't that fast (about 40 errors per minute, usually).

Poweress< Ben: Hmm, at first reading I missed the last part of your earlier question. As far as healing by myself or with help, I would have to say that I learned to release the power that guilt had over me, by letting go and letting spirit take over, and also by acknowledging the counter-productive nature of guilt. It rarely helps improve behavior ... more that it retards growth. I learned to remind myself that each moment is a new opportunity to act again.

Running_Bear< It is harder to forgive someone than it is to forget their actions. There is always someone who will bring it up again.

shiana< Running_Bear: Agreed ... forgiveness is or can be a difficult process, but it is healing, too. Now when people speak of the man that caused me to be sent to jail (through his actions), I can now understand that the lessons he brought me were jewels to be treasured, once I got past the cheap wrapping, and forgiveness came easily after that. When I think of him now it is with joy for the jewels rather than bitterness for the pain.

Poweress< shiana: That is wonderful. You are truly a loving individual. That attitude is very easy to speak of, but takes a truly loving enlightened soul to live it.

shiana< Poweress: *L* It took a while, let me tell you. I had to first forgive myself for allowing myself to fall into his trap. *L*

Tracey< (((shiana))) Quite a growth experience there, my dear. *S* to treasure the "lesson" ((((HUGS)))

Ben< ALL: Several of you are pointing out something that was a revelation to me: We forgive (release) others for our own sake much more than for their sake, because we can't afford to harbor resentment, hatred, grudges, etc., even if they are thoroughly justified.

Poweress< Ben: Yes, as I was always told as a child: Hate is like an acid; it does more damage to it's container than to that at which it is directed.

Running_Bear< Ben: I agree with you totally; it's just what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

Tracey< (((Ben))) *S* Yes, many times we tell ourselves we are forgiving another person for "their" sake, and that may be so, but it ALWAYS heals our own hearts and souls.

fate< I found it much harder to forgive myself then to forgive others.

shiana< fate: That is always harder for me to do as well. I understand that one all too well. ((hugs))

Ben< fate: Yes! Excellent point. Many people find it very difficult to forgive themselves. This is why various religions have come up with something like penance and/or sacrifice -- to give the person's subconscious mind a reason to forgive (release) a chunk of self-condemnation.

shiana< Sometimes it is hard to acknowledge that we are all mortal and as such make mortal mistakes. Rather than hating ourselves for those errors (or opportunities to grow), I think it is more important to love and forgive that child her fumbles.

Peachbird< I think the commandment "Love thy neighbor as thy self" has to do with being able to love/forgive self so that one can love/forgive another. How can you love/forgive anyone, if you cannot love/forgive yourself? This is my thinking.

fate< Well, if you look at it in depth, they have done nothing wrong. We are here to be all different types of people, so we can understand life. We take turns being the bad guy, see?

Ben< fate: I don't subscribe to the idea we are here to take turns being the bad guy.

fate< With our curiosity, we take different places to understand how it affects the person from that point of view.

[Ben < fate: I don't.]

waifhawk< As the GrandMothers said to the small hawk child when she cried out her pains of the missionary teacher woman, ironically echoing the words of the missionaries' own Nazarene: "Ahhh, forgive them, child, for in their ignorance, they do not to know that which they do." *S*

shiana< (((Hawk)))

Peachbird< Ah, yes, waifhawk...

FRAML< waifhawk: Yes, that lady did more to destroy acceptance of the message of Jesus than she knew. Her actions were the opposite of her supposed beliefs.

Tracey< (((waifhawk))) Teachers of a particular belief (any particular belief) are not always teachers of love as well. I am sorry for your pain and treatment as a child, and admire your understanding of it. (((((HUGS))))

JamesRD< For me, forgiveness is the hardest of all things to do; yet once done, it gives the greatest reward to one's inner being.

fate< This is what the laws of karma have caused. Now many are forgiving themselves and others, realizing that the other one and they are the same, just experiencing life.

TimG< Forgiving someone doesn't release them from the consequences of their actions, though.

shiana< TimG: No, I don't believe it does, nor does my forgiveness mean I wish to be around them anymore, either. I forgive, but there are those who I still prefer not to have around me anymore, for their energy is incompatible with my outlook. I do reserve the right to choose what kind of energy I allow around me, where and when I can.

Ben< TimG: It is possible to forgive but not pardon. To forgive is to release inwardly, to let go. To pardon is to let the other person avoid the consequences of his or her actions.

Katherina< Ben: I think true-hearted forgiveness also allows for pardon, not saying that it makes the wrong right, just saying total forgiveness.

shiana< Ben: Oh, I like that ... for I have forgiven but not pardoned. They will each face their own consequences through no help or hindrance from me.

Yopo< Ben: Thanks for reminding us of that distinction.

Ben< ALL: Do you have an example of a (this-life) memory that was blocked or buried in your subconscious mind and used to make you sick? If so, how was that memory discovered? And why does it no longer make you sick? Did you do this yourself, or did someone help you? YOUR TURN

emeraldlight< I did it myself. Same memory as before, covered by a recurring dream. I, through years of inner exploration, taking the course in miracles, managed to uncover the memories and release them.

TimG< I am reminded of the old MASH episode where Hawkeye had some painful memory triggered by smell. I find smells strongly bring back memories, both good and bad.

FRAML< I have a fear of falling; not heights, just falling; however I have yet to find the source of it.

junebeam< Ben: The reason for my energy draining was hidden from my consciousness until I was led to you -- who then helped me to discover what was actually making me sick.

shiana< As a teenager, I was a runaway, and as such exposed myself to rape, which did occur, but I have this wonderful habit of blocking unpleasant memories. The memory kept surfacing in a dream, and it finally got so bad I was afraid to sleep at night. I still do not remember all the details, nor do I need to, but to release the memory and the pain/damage I wrote a poem about the "feelings". Since then the dream no longer haunts me and I was able to heal.

Katherina< Ben: I blocked a rape as a young girl ... totally blocked it. I had not one recollection of it until I was in my 30's; then it began to surface in bits and pieces like a puzzle. I believe that when we are ready to deal with the issue (our spirit knows the right time, I think), then it is brought forward. I had to see a therapist at first, but I felt that she was making it worse by dwelling on it. I then released it from myself.

shiana< Katherina: I agree totally with the statement: When it is time to be dealt with, it shall be, in our own way, as it is "proper" for us as individuals. (((hugs)))

Katherina< ((((shiana))))) Thank you, I needed that hug. I've never spoken of this with others before. I'm glad I did. *S*

Running_Bear< Katherina: You have courage. *S*

Katherina< Running Bear: *S* Thank you. *S*

Running_Bear< Katherina: You're welcome!

Peachbird< I did not allow myself to remember something about my husband that kept me from moving through all the layers of grief. I would only allow myself to remember the perfection and not something that was less than perfect. I could never allow myself to go through the anger phase of the grief process. Learning to silence the voices of blame and condemnation allowed this memory to surface after almost 15 years! I have been very angry at my husband for a couple of weeks, but have been able to allow myself to heal and forgive both of us. I am free now, and I hope he is as well. I know that Eagle Eye is the person who helped bring this about for me without his even knowing.

Poweress< I had a very painful experience when I was a teenager. I was brutally raped at a party, and I kept silent about it for a very long time and felt very guilty about it, feeling I was to blame, and for a misunderstanding that I felt about the event. At the time, I screamed for someone to help me, until the man beat me to make me stop, and then I sort of separated myself from my body as a survival mechanism. When he finally finished and went to leave the room, as he opened the door, I saw people standing outside the door and I thought they were waiting in line, and I was deeply hurt at the belief that no one there cared any more than that about me. It took me years to talk about it, but then I finally told a friend what I thought happened. She told me that her brother was outside the door, and they were all there because they were worried about me, but afraid of the man who was raping me, and they were fighting over whether they should risk their lives in the attempt to save me, since they all knew this man had killed before.

shiana< (((Poweress)))

Peachbird< ... so they let it happen. {{{{{{Poweress}}}}} I am sorry...

Poweress< shiana and Peachbird: Thank you, that was very hard for me to share. Yes, they did let it happen, but I do not blame them. We were all very young. I was only 15 and most of the guys there were about the same age. The man was a very violent man, and everyone knew that. He was indeed dangerous. I know that someone would have been seriously hurt if not killed if they had interfered, and I would not have wanted that on my conscience. I know that one guy went and got a gun to stop him, but the other people there held him down to keep him from getting hurt. I did not find any of this out for years, though, because, as I found out years later, no one talked about it, thinking that would be best for me.

Peachbird< Yes, Poweress, I think it is part of the healing process to be able to speak of these things. Somehow it helps to say it out loud.

Tracey< (((Poweress))) Love to you, my dear lady... ((((HUG))))

shiana< (((Poweress))) Thank you for sharing this with us, dear sister. (((hugs)))

fate< But ask yourself would you be the caring person you are now if it had not happened? Has the experience not helped shape you to the person you are now?

TimG< Poweress: Some people deserve the wrong end of a shotgun. I would not be so forgiving, but I am deeply moved by your forgiveness.

Tracey< ((Ben)) I have always had a fear of people leaving me and not saying good-bye. It was almost obsessive. If a relationship had to end, I wanted an ending, a formal ending. In just the last year I "got it" -- I was very close to my Grandfather ... stayed with him during the day ... adored him. He died in the night and did not say good-bye. He said good-bye to my brother and sister who were much older, but did not want to "put me through it" ... little did he know it would affect me for years to come. Now that I know WHY I need a good-bye, I don't need it so much.

Ben< ALL: I am very impressed with these responses. Thank you. The fact you can openly discuss these experiences is to me an indication of spiritual healing.

shiana< Ben: Thank you for giving us this forum where we can all heal ourselves and share that healing with others. Namaste.

Yopo< Hearing all this tonight ... leaves me at a loss for words ...

Peachbird< I think healing allows one to begin to speak of the unspeakable. *S*

Katherina< Peachbird: I agree *S*

LEGS< My 14 year old granddaughter was raped with the help of the date rape drug at her birthday party at a friend's house. The neighbor came over to spike the punch for them. She was not the only one so assaulted.

shiana< (((LEGS))) That would be very difficult for you, as well as for her, but more so for you, for you are helpless or so you must feel. (((hugs)))

Peachbird< Oh, my, {{{{{Legs}}}}}, what our young people have to cope with in these days... sad...

LEGS< The problem with that drug is, they don't remember anything of the assaults.

Peachbird< LEGS: Well, maybe that is in some way merciful, though a horrible crime against an individual. Bless her heart, that would be terrible to have to deal with. My heart goes out to her and to all who have suffered such violation.

Katherina< (((((Legs)))) Blessings to you, your granddaughter and her parents. This must be very hard to deal with, and I will keep you and yours in my thoughts for a way to ease your pain and hurt.

Ben< ALL: Do you have an example of what seems to be a past-life memory that used to make you sick? If so, how was that memory discovered? And why does it no longer make you sick? Did you do this yourself, or did someone help you? YOUR TURN

Tracey< Ben: I have always been Native American in my heart ... not heritage this time around. One day when talking to a former life mate, I saw him pulled out of our tent and shot to death in front of me by soldiers. Our wolf was also shot. This memory was so violent that I cried for two hours ... blew his mind as he has no recollection. Even though I think he thinks I am pretty much a nut-case for my reaction, it was a healing experience that my soul needed to release.

emeraldlight< I had a past life experience as a slave -- found out through past life regression at one of Dick Sutphin's seminars. The awareness of the source often releases the effects, allowing us to re-decide the meaning of the experience.

Ben< Tracey, emeraldlight: Excellent examples. Thank you.

emeraldlight< I am a past life hypnotherapist. I have encountered many such healings.

Peachbird< emeraldlight: I have been to Sutphin Seminars as well. And the therapist I used was trained by him. It was an amazing experience. I saw my husband and I in five different lifetimes where one or the other of us left the other by death. My Guide said that I needed to understand about death and dying. Only a few months later my husband died; then two years later my daughter, in an auto accident.

emeraldlight< I was trained by Sutphin as well.

Poweress< Thank you so much, dear friends, for the outpouring of love ... I am deeply touched. (((((((hug)))))) As for past lives, I do not have any memory of past lives, but when he was about 5 years old, my son told me of an experience he had shared with me in a past life. He was a physician who wasn't able to heal me, and he was put to death by the King (who was apparently my husband) for the failure.

Peachbird< With the aid of an experienced hypnotherapist, I viewed lifetimes that helped to explain my relationship with my husband. I think those memories help me now in dealing with my recent revelation. *S*

shiana< Ben: I have a terrible fear of two things which I have yet to be able to "cure". (1) I am terribly afraid of water although I love it at the same time. (2) I am terrified of needles and "foreign" objects or stuff in my veins and body. I feel both of these are caused from past-life experiences ... they are not yet healed.

Ben< shiana: Yes, phobias such as fear of water are often caused by past-life memories, and amenable to regression therapy. The first case Dr. Baldwin dealt with at "St. Michael's Manor" was precisely this type of phobia.

FRAML< Shiana: Thanks for jogging my memory. I've never gotten sick over this, but have always had a fear of being blind, since childhood. I didn't know anyone who was blind then, so perhaps it is past life.

shiana< FRAML: To me it makes a great deal of sense. I know that there is nothing in my personal history in this lifetime to explain these fears, so I feel that they can only be accounted for from a previous lifetime. Unfortunately I have not been able to be hypnotized to discover anything.

Ethanacy< I wish I knew how to heal myself...

TimG< I have always felt that I was destined for greatness or leadership. I think this is probably from a past life. It causes pain in this life because I haven't achieved what I expected.

gardengirl< Not exactly a sickness, but in this life I became involved with a man who was vastly different from me -- an instant and intense attraction that bewildered me and everyone who knew me. I wanted to take care of him -- cook, clean, nurture. I made plans to leave my good life to move in with him, far from where I lived, in a town where I knew no one. He was an alcoholic, and very poor financially. Then one night when I was with him, in an instant I *saw* me as his daughter. My mother/his wife had died, and I took care of him for the rest of his and my lives. I didn't marry, or go to school, or work, or even leave his house. I didn't have a life; I just took care of him, my father. And in the same instant, I knew that we'd come together to give me an opportunity to either continue caring for him, or to break that bond ... and though not easy, break it I did.

Tracey< (((gardengirl))) How fortunate you *saw* it ... otherwise you would have continued the pattern. ((((HUG))))

shiana< gardengirl: That would have been a difficult experience. ((hugs))

Ethanacy< Is it possible for someone to have so much karma and negativity stored within their soul and energy fields that there possibly never may be hope for them to become a whole being within themselves and completely healed, balanced and living a lifestyle of homeostasis? What is one to do when they are locked inside of many self-repeating thought-form loops which only serve to sabotage? ... when ones strength eludes them? Is there a cure for soul apathy?

Peachbird< Ethanacy: You have to learn to silence the voices within so that you can open to Spirit. Then you will find peace as well as answers. *S* This I know from my own experience.

Ben< Ethanacy: Where there is life there is hope. And as we discussed earlier in this series, there are benevolent, perceptive, intelligent entities who will search for and help and heal and rescue every soul they can. Soul apathy is dangerous -- the path to spiritual death -- but unless apathy is absolute, life is recoverable.

Ethanacy< I hope so, because even as badly as I want to die, underneath that I truly do not. I just don't know how to bring my life together ... although I am working on it.

Ben< Ethanacy: Dying doesn't do much, because we just leave our bodies and take our minds (and desires) with us. I believe it is best to do what we can -- to live and to learn and to love -- here and now.

shiana< Ben: I have had "professionals" and non-professionals both try to take me under hypnosis ... and for a reason very important to me. I had been attacked and managed to escape from a man who became a serial killer in our area (he killed 14 prostitutes), and as important as it was to me to be taken under so that I could give the police the license plate, they couldn't get me under. I would not allow them to use drugs, for that would have been like a rape.

FRAML< shiana: Dr. Baldwin does not use hypnosis; he has another method.

fate< Anyone can step off the karmic wheel. You only need to decide to forgive all ills done to you, and yourself for all ills you have done to others in this life or any other.

Peachbird< fate: All these things are easily understood intellectually, but until you can internalize those concepts, it just does not work. *S*

fate< I have worked with rape victims many times and it does work. Just saying aloud you forgive yourself is the first step. Try it and see: just say out loud, "I forgive myself for all wrongs I have done to others."

Juhli< I believe our souls have a map of all our lifetimes. When we experience something we don't understand, it is an unresolved past life issue that has manifested itself on our body and state of mind. I was healed recently from a past life experience that surfaced. I experienced much pain in my solar plexus. With the help of a friend, I was regressed. I was married to a very jealous man in that lifetime. I was pregnant with his child, but he did not believe the child was his, so he plunged a knife into my solar plexus. So I had to journey to that lifetime and witness it as well as forgive so that I would heal.

LEGS< The small amount of past life regressions that I've had experience with found me leading very isolated and hermetic lives... always alone by choice and circumstance. I wonder if that it is why I now find it almost impossible to be alone, an intense dismay when I am by myself at night. I feel as if I'm being punished by God ... I know better, but a blind fear of loneliness has led me into at least one dissatisfactory solution, and made me realize there are other things as dismaying as being alone.

fate< LEGS: You must love self before you can love another.

shiana< LEGS: For a really long time I would "settle" for any relationship as long as there was someone beside me at night. These last 2 1/2 years as a single woman have finally allowed me to come into my "self" and discover that I am never truly alone for I have me ... so I can truly sympathize with you, luv. ((hugs))

Wallflower< shiana: I have been single for 12 years, and I too realized that alone with me was better than alone with someone that I loved.

shiana< Wallflower: ... or with someone I didn't really like, let alone love. *S*

Wallflower< shiana: I now feel that I can trust myself to discern a person of a quality relationship. The meetings are hard to arrange, though. Haven't even met anyone to reject!

shiana< Wallflower: *L* Oh, I've had a few to reject, but I've also had those that I could love and then let go, for it was not appropriate to either of us to continue at this time or in this lifetime.

Poweress< Wallflower and shiana: I will second that. It took me a long time to realize that a bad relationship was not better than no relationship. *S*

shiana< Poweress: It is a very empowering experience to finally get to that point. Now I am happy simply waking up in the morning, knowing that another adventure awaits my inspection. *G*

Ben< ALL: Again, thank you, and I'm sorry I can't type fast enough to respond to all of you.

Peachbird< Thank you, Ben, for this opportunity to think about and bring together these concepts. Thank you for the opportunity to share in this way.

Ben< COMMENT: The scenes or experiences found by regression may or may not have occurred in this life or a past life, but in any case, they are presently stored as data in the subconscious mind. We call it "regression" because we say and feel that we "go back in time" when we "get into" (re-activate) a memory so thoroughly that it replays the recorded images, sensations, and emotions like a super video-tape, but in fact we introspect and re-discover these subconscious memories here and now. It helps to remember they are old video-tapes, so we can say to ourselves "That was then -- this is now."

emeraldlight< Like I tell my clients, it doesn't matter whether these are memories of actual experiences or not. They are stored in the subconscious mind because they hold your basic beliefs about who you are. To get in touch with them and examine them is to meet yourself.

Ben< SUMMARY: Healing of memories is the type of spiritual healing sought for by many types of counseling, psychotherapy and psychiatry, including regression therapy. These therapies are basically aids to introspection and re-interpretation, to mitigate the detrimental effects of memories. Psychosomatic self-healing of the spiritual body and the physical body often follows (and may require) the healing of memories, including past-life (karmic) memories.

fate< As long as you think of yourselves as victims, no healing of the spirit can take place, for a victim has given their power to the victimizer and released the knowledge that we make our lives for our own good.

waifhawk< Ben: As it is spoken amongst my peoples, one must first heal the spirit; the healing of the body can then follow. *S*

shiana< ((waifhawk)) That is beautiful, and so true! Thank you for sharing that! ((hugs))

Katherina< waifhawk: I believe that to be so true! *S*

waifhawk< shiana, Katherina: *S* wado .. is much nice to find other cultures awakening to such ways. *S*

Poweress< waifhawk: Yes, I believe this completely. I do feel that my recovery from cancer is due to my connection to the power of spirit. That is where the true power resides.

waifhawk< Poweress: Exactly ... the doctors could not heal my body of the cancer, and yet when my spirit was healed in ceremony by a medicine woman, the healing of the body followed. *S*

FRAML< waifhawk: It sounds as if your spirit and the medicine woman got the message to your body cells to fight the cancer, as it was an invader who was masquerading as a friend, rather than imparting the idea that 'you were sick'.

waifhawk< FRAML: *S* The medicine woman spoke that she did nothing but to help me remember that I "knew" how to heal within. Once I "remembered" then, ai, it was as simple as telling the body cells that this invader was foe, not friend. And you are correct in the assumption that the body cells and perhaps even I somehow saw this invader as friend and not foe. *S*

Poweress< waifhawk: Yes, we have that very powerful learning experience in common. Our customs may be slightly different, but I think the basic belief systems are very similar.

Ben< /topic Discussion of the healing of memories, as part of spiritual healing

TimG< Ben: How can you tell if a memory is making you sick or if you have a genuine physical problem?

Ben< TimG: Good question. Differential diagnosis is more of an art than a science, and not always easy.

Ben< ALL: Finding subconscious memories that are causing illness usually must start with the effects (symptoms) and search inwardly for the cause (memory).

shiana< When we allow a memory to continue to cause pain or guilt, we are not allowing ourselves to truly heal. When a memory causes us to shy away, we then know it requires examination and healing.

Poweress< shiana: Well said. *S*

TimG< shiana: Thank God for new beginnings.

Slider/Abyss< Ben: What do you call it when you don't want to forget a memory, as it is part of your life experience, but yet the memory causes you grief?

Alyammah< Slider: An opportunity to grow is what you have, I believe. It's good to remember that the experiencing of pain is, after all is said, a choice.

Ben< Slider/Abyss: It isn't necessary (or necessarily wise) to forget anything. That just represses it (stuffs it down in the subconscious). Better to remember and re-evaluate and re-interpret memories from a maturing present perspective.

Wallflower< Ben: I feel blocked even from my memories. I work three times a month at mediation workshops, and I try very hard not to judge my non-success, but I just cannot connect to my higher self or hear my guides.

Alyammah< Wallflower: You can meditate, yet you do not feel "connected"? I'm sorry; I cannot understand that easily ... can you help me to understand ?

Wallflower< Alyammah: I can meditate. In fact most people say I go into a trance state. Most times I don't know where I went during the meditation, and I cannot remember, but I am out for an hour.

emeraldlight< Wallflower: Perhaps you are limiting the experience by expecting it to happen on your terms instead of accepting the unfolding as it occurs.

Wallflower< emeraldlight: I am impatient, yes. I've worked at it very devotedly for over two years. I feel more at peace, but others seem more connected. The unfolding for me seems to be part of the lesson. I am open... I wait... and in the silence there is only silence.

emeraldlight< Wallflower: There is a message in the silence; that's something I have learned just this week.

shiana< Wallflower: I don't hear my "guides" per se, but I do listen to my intuition when it tells me things. I no longer agonize over not hearing the guides, for I know they are with me and guide my footsteps; that I can and do treasure.

Poweress< shiana: Indeed! *S*

Alyammah< Wallflower: I have a friend who had the very same problem; try as he might to learn to meditate, he couldn't. Yet he had a singing voice that belonged in a celestial choir. So perhaps some of us perceive ourselves as "blocked" when in fact we may be so close as to be a part of our guides, if you know what I mean, and it would be to our detriment (ego-wise) to discover such at certain points in time.

Slider/Abyss< Alyammah: Your last post almost sounds like you're explaining multiple personalities or multiple spirits?

Alyammah< Slider: My, no! At least not in a "negative" sense (smiling), but often times our Oversouls can be our strongest source of truth; for after all, who knows us better than ourselves? And of course, we are ALL "multiple personalities" contained within the Oversoul who has created each of us to experience life, returning to the Oversoul with the knowledge gained. Am I being clearer now?

Slider/Abyss< Alyammah: Yes, now I understand where you are coming from, which has been a concept I seem to believe in, of multiple co-existing personalities or as you call oversouls (sparks back to the fire).

Alyammah< Slider: Indeed, it is so, I believe. The One Oversoul, comprised of the countless personalities which comprise it. Sometimes when I think of my Oversoul, I imagine a huge multi-faceted diamond, some facets polished and shining, through which others can see straight to the core of the gem, while other facets are a bit more dog-eared, some cloudy, some perhaps even opaque, which are just windows (personalities) which are still not vibrating at their maximum frequency of love, I would suppose. Still some work to do on understanding that self ... or facet of Self, perhaps I should say

Ethanacy< Alyammah: You are the first person who I have heard speak of one's oversoul. This is the level which I have been accessing for some time. Thank you for that insight and vision.

Slider/Abyss< Alyammah: Ahhhhhhhhh, yes, we are all diamonds in the rough. And everyone wants only the lustrous ones. What happens to those that are just industrial grade? I guess that is what gets ground up in society.

Ethanacy< I have had so many multi-incarnational soul memories ... more than anyone my age should ever have to experience. Is it possible to have stored within ones DNA-soul matrix, not only chromosomal genetic karma through ones family lineage, but also mass ancestral karma ... like maybe for participating in the destruction of Atlantis? Hopefully in time these memories will be understood and integrated. They have for the most part just caused me to isolate myself from others. Maybe my pain is too deep ... too many traumas?

Wallflower< Ethanacy: Many Atlantians are here now to heal. I have heard many are drawn to the Seattle, Washington area.

TimG< Ethanacy: Isolation is self-perpetuating. I have suffered deep depression and wanted to be alone. Seeking out old friends helped immensely. There is always hope.

Ethanacy< I have relived being burnt at the stake 3 times. So much trauma was stored inside my soul through this experience I screamed at the top of my lungs and tears were streaming down my cheeks uncontrollably. I have seen that there are patterns not only stored inside our souls, acquired through our simultaneous incarnations, but also patterns of the family lineage one incarnates into. It is not easy for me to relate to any of my peers that I know in 3-d about any of these levels. I am 22 and they do not teach us about the soul in school. It has been like a blind man teaching himself to see without ever consciously seeing before.

Wallflower< Ethanacy: In previous times, to be spiritually awakened was dangerous indeed ... witch hunts, etc. It is safe now.

Ethanacy< Thanks for not beating me up. *g*

TimG< Ethanacy: Tonight we have been talking about past lives before our current physical life. I have had several past lives WITHIN my current life. I have had many highs and many lows. I am currently waiting for the next high. Knowing that it will come, eventually, gives me peace now. Shiana sounds like she has had several past/current lives also, and look at how strong she is.

shiana< TimG: Thank you. I expect I have had many past lives, but they are less important to me than simply experiencing this life to its fullest, in the physical here and now. Strong? ... perhaps ... but I see it more as a willingness to experience what this life has to impart to me, and then to share it with those who wish the sharing.

Poweress< TimG: Yes, I am glad to hear that you are optimistic about the eventual arrival of the high point. I can definitely relate to that. Take heart, dear one, as long as you maintain your expectation and belief that better times are coming, they most certainly will appear. *S*

Ben< Ethanacy: It may be that all those past-life memories aren't your own. Other entities may be attached to you and communicating their memories to you.

Ethanacy< Ben: Sure, I guess something like that is possible. My higher self and others have assured me that what I have experienced is real. You are right... the memories that I have recovered have come from mainly three different levels, but they have all been acquired through going into the holographic storage modules that exist at the quantum levels of our DNA... the whole woven etheric DNA-soul matrix. The truth is I asked for it, but underneath and above my consciousness, I have always felt like I was being directed. Yet I have had such difficulty listening to and believing in myself. So you are right ... it has been not only individualized multi-incarnational soul memories, but also planetary and species level memories, and also extraterrestrial off-world memories ... so many memories ... volumes of information. This is pretty heavy for a 22 year old.

Ben< Ethanacy: Yes. Connecting that broadly and widely is a heavy burden, regardless of one's chronological age. That is why we need to be closed most of the time, for privacy and for undiluted ability to tend to our own spiritual growth. We simply cannot carry all the concerns and memories and burdens of so many entities and species and races.

FRAML< Wallflower: Our progression comes at the pace we can handle, even if it does seem slow at the time. I've had that experience ... thought I was going slow, and found out that I had developed rapidly and then came to plateaus where I got anxious about moving on, but came to realize that the plateaus were for rest and evaluating what I had learned.

Alyammah< Ah, FRAML, I understand a bit more now. Wallflower's concern was over being unable to "hear" one's guides. Then again, that is akin to not being able to "see" the air... yet we respond to it without conscious thought and breathe it in and out... hmm, Wallflower?

Wallflower< Alyammah: When I meditate, I go so deep. They are guided meditations ... channeled. I go so into the higher levels that I overload. I loose consciousness. I trust that I am connected; I just cannot hear or remember what I might have heard.

Alyammah< Wallflower: Oh well, then, I begin to understand. Also, when you go under, it may be that you are assisting another on another plane, you know, and perhaps it is not "your business" to be able to recall it later. (smile) I have had that happen in my life while speaking with others. The message was theirs, not mine, to hear, so you come back "knowing" nothing that has occurred.

Wallflower< Alyammah: Oh, I like that! It feels good to know I might be accomplishing something, even if I don't know it. That happens a lot, I think, in my teaching. I don't know why I am placed where I am sometimes. Just once in awhile it's a connection a student needed.

Alyammah< Wallflower: Many people work on other planes and have no conscious knowledge of it... what a joyous thing.

shiana< FRAML: Well spoken... and I agree those plateaus are for rest and re-evaluation.

Wallflower< FRAML: Yes, you know of which you speak. I realize how far I have progressed. Time was when I thought TRUST was throwing oneself off a cliff and trusting god would catch you. I thought that was what trust in creator was. Now I TRUST ... I trust the universe to provide for me; I trust that I am doing the right things ... I TRUST in the love of creator... It's just soooooo s-l-o-w ...

FRAML< Wallflower: Yes, that "throw yourself over a cliff for God to save" idea is not an example of trusting in God, but of testing God to prove his power. Think of the temptations that the devil gave Jesus during his 40 days. Jesus trusted God to take care of him by not testing Him like the devil wanted him to. As to 'spirit guides' I do not believe them because they give me a 'name' -- I evaluate them as to whether they are good or bad; i.e., do they seek to gain power through me, or do they have a helping purpose for others.

Wallflower< FRAML: I thought throwing myself over the cliff was god's test of me. I was just never willing to take the leap. Now I at least know HE/SHE doesn't require the leap. The requirement is to trust that I am worthy of the love of the creator source. And it is the issue with being worthy that somehow still holds me back from my own sense of connection.

FRAML< Wallflower: I know the feeling of unworthiness in God's eyes. I felt that I was the only sinner in the church I joined, not because of the actions or words of others, but because I felt I wasn't worth God's attention. Then I got the message that I did indeed have the faith of a mustard seed, and in me was good ground for it to grow. And I had to work at pulling myself out of the spiritual gully I was in. H'mm ... I've got to add that to my home page.

waifhawk< FRAML: It is not in the "name" but the content of the words/message. Who cares what the name is, if that which it speaks does not sing truths within?

FRAML< waifhawk: I understand you, and your inner evaluation is what I have seen lacking in others. I have encountered many here in SWC over the last three years who believed the spirit talking to them only because it said a name they trusted. It has been my experience, and others I know, that there are bad spirits who will take whatever name they need in order to get you to believe them without questioning their intent/motivation.

waifhawk< FRAML: ai, I too have seen many mislead by some "voice/thought" within simply because it gave them a name they could identify with and trust. They trusted the name and not the content of the words spoken. Oddly enough, amongst my peoples, we are taught at a very young age NOT to listen to these "voice/thoughts" that come IF they come with a name attached. *S* It is taught that if the words are truths that will sing in your heart, then there is no need for a name to speak them.

FRAML< waifhawk: That is part of your background that is not found in my path. However, I've come to learn that much of the early ways of the First Christians have been buried/denied by the doctrine and dogma that was created after the third Century.

waifhawk< FRAML: *S* ai, as I am finding out that what the missionaries crammed into us was NOT the message of the Nazarene at all. *S*

uruz< LOVE to ALL. I feel drawn to this group, yet myself cannot bring any past memories in meditation, but know they are there.

Katherina< uruz: I also feel the same, and can not recollect the past lives. *S*

uruz< Katherina: Knowing I am not the only one who feels blocked brings a feeling of calm to me. Thank you.

Katherina< uruz: You are more than welcome. *S* I think, when it is time to recall, we shall. For me, I think there are things I must first clear for this now before I can look inside to relate to what has been. Or possibly, as I begin to clear, I will see the association to the now and what has been, if you know what I mean. *S* Sometimes I have trouble relating what my thoughts are to words. *S*

uruz< Katherina: You are true in your thoughts, but I feel things happen and know I have lived them before and get upset that I cannot grasp the real situation.

Katherina< uruz: I know. *S* ... like it is right there on the edge of your memory and you just can't grab a hold of it?

Ethanacy< I was never raped, being male, but I had to go through the whole scenario of an extremely dysfunctional family and I have done many inspired writings and they have helped me to understand and put my experiences into perspective somewhat and it is all part of the soul contract that we created before birth if there is no such thing as random coincidence and apparently synchronicity is "As If By Design" and I heard the spirits very strongly last night and right now as well while I write this.

TimG< Ethanacy: I must confess that I have never seen so many unrelated words in one sentence.

Ethanacy< TimG: It makes sense to me... and others who I have connected with who have gone through similar experiences as myself. We just perceive things differently, that is all.

Yopo< This discussion has deeply troubled me tonight. SO MANY who have known pain as young folks. I keep thinking of those lines from Yeats: "The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." Sometimes these words seem like a description of our times. And while some of the innocent may succeed in healing their wounds, finding release from their pain in forgiveness, the passionate intensity of those who have done the wounding goes unchanged; they keep right on hurting, their numbers keep on growing, and the world keeps on turning into darkness. I gotta wonder how THAT can be healed? (And pardon me, friends, for sharing a question that can only be paired with a dark thought.)

Ben< Yopo: Yes, this world is a mess. But then, it always has been. Mid-astral twilight zone. History shows this world has been worse for most inhabitants than it is now. For example, medicine, and food supply. And the ability to freely share information that others have purchased with lifetimes. Yes, this world is a mess -- but it could be and has been worse. *smile*

Poweress< Yopo: In my view, the world heals as each of us individually heals.

TimG< Poweress: Thanks for showing we can overcome just about anything.

gardengirl< Yopo: I've thought that maybe it was a 'sins of the fathers passed onto the sons' sort of thing. Quite often pain is inflicted by parents onto children ... usually unknowingly, I think. And maybe it's just a sort of genetic evolution thing -- some people continue to hand down the horribleness, "teaching what they learned"... learning nothing better, they beat their own children. Then others go through horrible experiences and are able to forgive and lead good lives and are exquisitely careful to never inflict anything like the pain they've experienced on anyone... and therefore the lineage is permanently and positively altered.

Ethanacy< {{{gardengirl}}} *tears*

gardengirl< Ethanacy... {{{{{hugs}}}}} *S*

TimG< gardengirl: I've spent a lifetime trying not to do what my parents did, even though I suffered no abuse. There are many bad habits that can be stopped by free will.

Yopo< gardengirl: Yeah, there is certainly that way darkness has of perpetuating itself. Most abusers were themselves abused. And it is also true, I suppose, that some souls seem to be polished and grow brighter by their adversity. We've seen examples here tonight. I was just thinking of all this on a "sorrow of the world" sorta level. We get to a place where we feel the burden of that sorrow, even when it isn't of personal origin, you know? How does one heal THAT, when the events giving rise to it aren't personal events? That was what I was getting at. *S* I shall endeavor to lighten up...

FRAML< Yopo: Perhaps that is why we need to focus on where we can help others. What good is it to be dismayed over the state of the world, for we know that we can't help so many in need, that we end up ignoring those next to us whom we can help? Some with a 'global vision' may say that I'm being narrow minded, however I think that it is more effective to care and help those I can touch than to care for millions I can't touch and become so dismayed that I do absolutely nothing except to lament about "their" problems.

[Ben< FRAML: Yes, I agree. We need to help those we can help -- our families, friends, neighbors, co-workers, and those we encounter day by day. To the degree that more people do what they can to help those right around them, this world can become a better place.]

emeraldlight< Yopo: We go through it, we find the source of all is love.

Yopo< Lots of good comments. Thanks, ALL. Just momentarily experiencing a philosophical bump in the road...

Wallflower< Ben: There was one night that I chatted late on SWC and made mention of my impatience with guides, asking couldn't they just yell. I had a dream so intense that I woke up not just once but twice with leg cramps so bad it took two days for them to go away. In the dream a Mayan priest wanted son to kill best friend who threatened the priests' false sense of power. As a result of the dream I understood all the relationships as though I was each participant in the dream -- the son, the priest, the victim. I understood each one's motivations such that I never really knew who I was.

Ben< Wallflower: Yes ... I've seen that type of empathy in past-life regressions. In fact, one of the regression techniques Dr. Baldwin uses and teaches is to ask the person to look from the eyes of each one in the scene. It is often very revealing of their motives and can lead to a deeper understanding of each one there.

Ethanacy< I will say nothing further. Thank you everyone for allowing me to share this space with you. Thank you for showing me that there is at least a glimmer of hope, not only for myself, but also for all of us. It's good to know that not everyone wants to see what we have created and hold as universal truths destroyed.

Poweress< Ethanacy: Yes, I feel that way myself sometimes. Love and light to you, dear one.

TimG< Ethanacy: Live long and prosper.

Ben< TimG: We need to invent a sign for Spock's hand-signal when he says "Live long and prosper." How about \\// ?

Slider/Abyss< Ben: *S* I was just sitting here doing that very Spock hand signal when your post came in. {Abyss}

Yopo< Reality-testing tip #24: If a raccoon gives you the "live long and prosper" sign, you are most likely dreaming.

TimG< Good night all. A very heavy evening that makes my troubles seem small. God's love and blessings.

13. Spiritual Healing
Session 6: Sat 24 Oct 1998

Ben< Tonight is the last session in this series, so I'll only be able to outline one very large subject area that we have barely mentioned. At the end of the hour, I'll add a few comments from my notes, and list some related topics.

Ben< For tonight, as they say, there's good news and bad news. Let's look at the bad news first.

Ben< ALL: Do you have an example of symptoms (such as anger, hatred, fear, lust, jealousy, depression, anxiety, phobia, obsession, etc.) that seemed to "take on a life of their own"? YOUR TURN

FRAML< Ben: Fear of falling. Also, I have to be careful I don't fall prey to lustful discarnates.

Dreamz*< Ben: Not sure what you mean by "life of their own" -- attached spirit? Or just an emotion so strong, it stands on it's own as a separate part of our selves?

Lor< I am not sure what you mean exactly, Ben. My wife tends to worry a lot, and her worrying seems to get worse as she progresses at times. Is that what you mean?

Ben< Dreamz* and Lor: Okay, I'll go ahead and post an example.

Ben< Several years ago, a man named Joe asked me to help him find the cause of a strange, fulminating, prolonged anger he sometimes experienced that did not seem like his normal anger. By questioning him, I helped him boil down the specific occasions in which that anger typically started. Put briefly, it started if he was driving in traffic and another car seemed about to hit his car, but not always. No matter whether the other car came from the left or the right, Joe felt a little flash of his normal anger -- but if the other car came from the left, his anger suddenly amplified, as if it had taken on a life of its own, and it lasted for several days thereafter. At the point I saw this one-sided pattern, I suddenly asked him "Who got hit from the left?" Joe's voice said "I did" -- but then he immediately said "No, I've never been hit from the left." I said "I'd like to talk with the one who got hit from the left." Joe's voice said "Okay" -- and I was in conversation (via Joe) with the ghost of a man who was killed in an auto accident. I counseled him, prayed for a team of angels to come and help him, and he soon went home with them to the Light. From that moment on, Joe has never again experienced that type of anger.

greyman< Ben: I wonder if Joe was open (attached) to the ghost when he drove in the Beltway DMZ.

Ben< greyman: I didn't look for the event in which the ghost attached to Joe, but the ghost explained the accident in which he was hit from the left and died. Joe remembered seeing such an accident about two blocks ahead of him.

Katherina< Ben: I have had a life-long fear of the forest. I love nature and the forest, but am unable to be in them without all alarms going off in me.

Ben< Katherina: Yes, inner conflict of that sort can be an indication of discarnate influence.

Katherina< Ben: How does one learn to open to this and heal it? When the fear is over-bearing.

FRAML< Katherina: I recently picked up the desires of a friend's deceased finance for her. He had attached himself to her, and in an unprotected moment, I allowed him to link to me. I began to feel this "romantic desire" toward her. Fortunately, we are 2,000 miles apart. In discussion with friends, we decided I had an attachee. And during a detachment session we found the link to him. After the detachment was performed and rescue operations were complete, I discovered that "romantic" interest was gone. FORTUNATELY!

Katherina< So are we saying that at some point a soul that has had some trauma and is wandering had attached to me, and if this is what we are saying, how do I help this soul?

Ben< Katherina: It may be that a wandering earth-bound soul has attached to you and is sending you his or her feelings. How to help such a soul is the subject of spirit releasement therapy and soul-rescue. I have some insights and examples on my site.

Katherina< Ben: I will look for that info on your site, thank you.

Cassandra< Ben: I think my anxiety about health sometimes makes me sick. It might have life of its own, as I don't seem to be able to shut it off, or I think I have, but I get very nervous.

Ben< Cassandra: "I don't seem to be able to shut it off" could be an indication that it isn't within your conscious control. Possibly from a past life, possibly from an attached entity.

Cassandra< Ben: How do I find out which or what it is? Any questions or meditations I could work with?

[Ben< Cassandra: For a brief introduction to this type of diagnosis, see Dr. Bill Baldwin's two papers under "Resources" on my site.]

aleyah< I have a deep seeded hatred towards my (hopefully soon to be) ex-husband. Does that count?

FRAML< aleyah: It took me 17 years to both forgive my ex-wife from walking out on me and shacking up with another man, and to release the hurt I felt.

Ben< aleyah: I don't know about your deep-seeded hatred for your soon-to-be-ex husband. The question might be whether it controls you.

aleyah< How do you deal with your fear and paranoia when they not only have a life of their own, but a body as well?

Ben< aleyah: It isn't so difficult to see where the symptoms are coming from if they come from someone who presently lives in a physical body.

aleyah< Ben: So if a physical being wants to leave the earth, but the flesh is not willing, can another person be connected to for help in this process?

Ben< aleyah: Perhaps, but I wouldn't recommend it. There are entities who try to get a person to leave his or her body so they can enter and operate that body.

aleyah< Ben: Actually, I was talking about my ex-. He seems to be on that path by the actions he takes.

[Ben< aleyah: A human soul who really wants to die can leave his or her body.]

Dreamz*< Ben: My sister learned a technique of hypnosis from a friend of hers. She practiced on me, in a matter of speaking. She walked me through the beginning, with a blue light of protection. I started out in a room. The door was closed. I left the room, eventually, went through the rest of the house, found myself in a DARK hallway, completely unable to see anything. (This was a while back; I do not remember all details). Somehow, I was wanting to turn around in the hallway and see where I had entered, but could not. I was in total DARKNESS. I turned a certain way, and somehow saw a spurt of light. I walked towards it. The light led to a window. I was no longer in the house ... could not even see the house. I saw a field ... green, and open ... led to a forest. I went to the forest, and this is where I Flipped!!! Again, I found myself feeling very alone, and it became so dark that I could not see. I began to cry from this fear, and did not know what to do. I felt extremely insecure, so she panicked and attempted to bring me out of it. That took a few minutes. I fought at first. Is it possible to fight about coming out of hypnosis? What is your response to this, please?

Ben< Dreamz*: Sounds like an induced out-of-body trip that wasn't well oriented. Yes, people can fight hypnosis or coming out of hypnosis, either way.

Dreamz*< Ben: I understand that my sister is an amateur. *S* But the reason that I brought this out to you, is because ... it is the fear of being alone that is deep inside me. This is one of my biggest fears. I am not sure why, though. I have had contact and abilities with spirits since I was very young. I almost always feel their presence ... as though they attach to me ... and often feel that I am never alone, spirit-wise; therefore, I wish to have someone with me in a physical sense. Yet, there are times I want to be alone.

[Ben< Dreamz*: Perhaps a discarnate entity attached to you because he or she is afraid of being alone. Also, it is good to practice being alone but not lonely.]

LAGONE< Ben: I don't understand some of this because I believe we were given "free choice." My children used to make the excuse that the other person made them so mad. I'll tell them that no one can make them angry but themselves.

Ben< LAGONE: Yes, good point. But see my next post.

Aqua< It is difficult to find true reason why an action caused our anger or hatred or grudges. That's why we find it so difficult to forgive and pardon OURSELVES OR OTHERS ... till it is time to reap the consequences of our actions by accepting that any pain/dislike/unfavorable events happening to us now as part of effects of what we had done shall calm us down, thus we are more relaxed, and in the end we shall be able to give 'Response' rather than 'Reaction' to an Action.

Lor< LAGONE: Perhaps if some angry entity has attached themselves to some person in the flesh, that person may be influenced by that entity to exhibit anger, unbeknownst to person. Dr. Baldwin has treated cases like that.

Ben< COMMENT. Symptoms of illness that seem to take on a life of their own can indicate a need to remove or disconnect from one or more detrimental discarnate entities. How to do that is too large a subject for tonight, but my next two postings may elicit some insights.

Ben< ALL: Now for the good news. In an earlier session, windi mentioned an act of cleansing that she initiated (by envisioning it happening), and it seemed to "take on a life of its own." This observation is very significant, because in this case "take on a life of its own" is an indication that benevolent discarnate entities became involved in that cleansing.

Ben< ALL: Do you have an example of spiritual healing, blessing, cleansing, etc., that seemed to take on a life of its own? YOUR TURN

Katherina< Ben: Spiritual healing last night ... and I would welcome input on this. *S* I would like to share an experience I had last night. I have a injured hand, and yesterday the doctors said they think I may have gangrene in the fingers, so last night I was devastated and lost, wondering aimlessly. I did the following, must have come from within, for I knew not what I was doing, just followed my own self. I put on a CD I have of Reiki music and sat in the middle of my living room floor. My sweet dog (Baby is her name) came and laid beside my right leg. As I sat there and petted her I started to go within. I was really in ... a place I have never been. I called for the source (not with words, though). I called again, then a third time, and all around me became bright -- so bright. I have seen this light but once before; it was when I was in child-birth and had died. As I stood in this light I felt a calm come upon me, a tranquillity like not known here on this planet, a love so tender that it burst with no pain. I held up my hand (the injured one) and a lavender light from nowhere swirled around it like a swarm of bees, swirling and swirling, faster and faster. I felt a warmth in my hand, a soothing, loving warmth. Then there was orangeish red light that wrapped itself around my entire body, and then blue and yellow and green; they swirled around my body and made like a cocoon. In the cocoon the light was still so bright, I stood in the middle of this cocoon and the colors swirled around me for I don't know how long. Then as they swirled they began to take down the cocoon and I was aglow of all colors. Then out of nowhere I heard the music of the CD I had put on, and I opened my eyes ... I had been sitting in the middle of my living room floor for 2 hours, my dog still by my right side sound asleep. The strange thing is that my CD was not on continuous play ... it is only a 46 minute CD and it was on the first song. I felt very strange yet extremely calm and peaceful. I got up and went to bed. Today I awoke and I know in my heart of hearts I have been healed ... I believe with all I am that this is the truth ... and my hand even looks better today.

bluestar< That is totally amazing and beautiful, Katherina. :-)

Ben< Katherina: Thank you. That is a fine example of something done for you that you did not do yourself.

Dreamz*< Ben: There is an incident that occurred down the street. A man burned in his home. I feel extremely drawn to the atmosphere. Is this off key of what you are asking?

FRAML< Dreamz*: I believe it is related -- a chance for the rescue of a soul who died a traumatic death, and may still be 'in it'. See the "detachment sessions" on Ben's site.

Dreamz*< FRAML: He ignited the flame deliberately. My boy-friend and I drove past there last night. I wanted to see and 'see'. I asked him to stop for a moment. I felt the man's presence presently still there, and him seeing us ...

FRAML< Dreamz*: My method is to connect to God, ask Him to send a rescue team of angels to the spirit of the person, and explain to him that he has died and that they are there to take him to the Light/Heaven. That he doesn't have to wait until the "last day". I have experience of this technique working, both personal and from others who have used it.

Dreamz*< FRAML: Thank you for the reply! *S*

LAGONE< Ben: I have to ask the question: What do you mean by "A life of it's own?" Nothing has a life of it's own. Life belongs to all and God ...

greyman< LAGONE: You haven't seen my pups. They most assuredly have lives of their own!

LAGONE< greyman: But they are yours by the words "my pups." Also, without the Creator, they wouldn't be here.

greyman< LAGONE: Only that they have trained me well. To feed, play. Sometimes I think they are conducting hideous experiments on me. *G*

LAGONE< greyman: All friends who give unconditional love have a tendency to do that ... *VBS*

greyman< LAGONE: Namaste!

Ben< LAGONE: Every living entity (incarnate or discarnate) has within it a spark of the divine, or it wouldn't be alive, but individual entities differ remarkably in will and purpose. And they differ in their effects on other entities. Signs of their different effects is what I'm pointing toward.

LAGONE< I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. I just have a child-like faith, but I guess I'd have to say I have a fear of the fallen angel and everything that's involved with him ... that doesn't have a life of it's own. I've given it life.

Ben< LAGONE: No offense taken. *smile* Everyone here has the right to express what they believe.

FRAML< LAGONE: Your fear is also a safe-guarding mechanism. I have seen many in here who have believed that "there are no bad spirits, only good ones" and have been lead into harm.

LAGONE< Ben and FRAML: Thank you! I'm new at this, and I do have an open mind, but it's very closed on some ideas.

5foot2< Once I worked in retail, and in giving a man his change, he touched my forearm -- I felt instantly sick. I looked at his face, his eyes (the feeling is coming back ... uck); he looked so deep inside of me it made me feel ... there are no words ... and he was gone.

[Ben< 5foot2: Yes, this describes an encounter with a human who is harboring evil spirits. The effect of his touch was like poison to you, and it sounds like he did it intentionally. Unfortunately, there are such people on this planet.]

Aqua< Ben: When a true spiritual healing is in process, anything is possible, including the benevolent spirit entities being involved. Sometimes they channel through the patient's guard 'Angels' (or ancestors/relatives/friends Soul). The result should be a calming effect. If the result was more tense or stressful to the patient later on, it means some evil spirits disguised as benevolent spirit being.

[Ben< Aqua: Yes, a calming effect -- inner peace -- is a sign of benevolent spirit beings. And it is likewise true of benevolent incarnate beings, such as a parent comforting a frightened child.]

bluestar< Some people have mentioned seeing colors during the healing process. I see vortexes or pulsating repetitive bursts of energy emanating from a point. Usually it just appears (to me) as bright yellow/orange/red although sometimes I see green or some other color. Anyone else?

Katherina< bluestar: Those are the colors in my healing last night; look at my post. *S* Must be a color signature to those healing energies. *S*

bluestar< Katherina: Yes :-) I see now ... the metaphor of bees swarming around ... it is kind of like that, only in patterns.

aleyah< bluestar: When I have been a witness to healings, it seems all colors are present. The difference is which colors and shapes are necessary for the specific healing.

Abyss< Colors the DNA of healing entities!!!

Katherina< Abyss: Greetings! *S* What an interesting concept -- healing entities. I have always thought of the healing energies coming directly from the highest source (whatever name one gives to the source). *S*

bluestar< Katherina: I envy you your ability to be so visual. My visuals are extremely limited and short-lived. I know the healing is done by the result, but I often wish I could witness the "beauty" of the process. :-)

aleyah< bluestar: Your only limitations are the one's you place in your own imagination.

Lor< aleyah: Sometime one's limitations are caused by an uninvited outside entity influencing your thinking and responses. Some people find that they are not the Captain of their soul that they thought, unfortunately. I doubt that it is wise to ignore the effects of the dark forces.

bluestar< agreed, aleyah, but I don't really place limits on my imagination; it's just that my imagination isn't "visual". By this I mean I may "know" something is happening elsewhere, but unlike some who "see" the event in their mind, I just "know." I have never been good at visualization. I usually skip over visual adjectives when I am reading fiction, because I have such a hard time with them, and if someone describes a dress or a room ... I'm hopeless.

aleyah< bluestar: Have you ever tried to look INTO the words rather than just see or hear them? When you can achieve all 5 senses, the next step is OBE.

bluestar< aleyah: Interesting idea. *s* I will try looking "into" words, specifically adjectives of a visual nature, kinda the way dyslexics do with letters ... feel the corner, color, height, whatever, taste it, touch it. I would love to be more visual. :-)

Joan< Hi, Ben! It's Joan from Richmond. I just stumbled in here tonight! Responding to your statement about entities who enter and operate a person's body: If that happens, how do you get the entity out, and the person back in?

Ben< Joan: Hello! If you are who I think you are, you know at least some of the answers to that question. *S* [She was in "Caring Connections Will Stretch"]

Joan< Yes, It's me! Just delighted to find this seminar! Got a 'message' from FRAML, but don't even know how to answer it. Really new here -- but I'll be back next week.

Ben< ALL: Okay, I'll start posting my summary and comments. Feel free to comment or question them. *smile*

Ben< SUMMARY: Detrimental discarnate entities can be involved in many types of illness -- and beneficial discarnate entities can be involved in many types of healing. In either case, they often detect and act on an opportunity to reinforce, amplify and prolong something that we ourselves initiated.

Ben< COMMENT: Faith healing has earned a mixed reputation, because when it works, it can be a temporary result of emotional fervor, and when it doesn't work, faith healers (and others) are apt to say to the afflicted "You didn't have enough faith." This is a bad doctrine, a cop-out on the part of those who say it, and so are the cruel rationalizations "God must not have seen fit to heal you" and "Your illness must be part of your karma." All such rationalizations place the blame (and guilt) for lack of health and failure of healing onto the suffering person. Kindness does not do this. And rational humility says "I don't know why you weren't healed. Maybe we need to try a different method of healing."

Ben< COMMENT: What we said about hypnosis and hypnotists in an earlier session also applies to channeling. No matter how it is induced, channeling is done in an altered state of consciousness. And deep trance is a very vulnerable state. Some hypnotists and some discarnate entities will take advantage of your vulnerability. Therefore, be cautious about making yourself vulnerable, and be very careful about who you let into your mind.

Ben< ALL: I have one more post tonight. Maybe I should call it a pole instead of a post because its longer than usual. *grin*

Ben< ALL: A partial list of related topics. Reiki (theory and practice). Christian Science (theory and practice). Examples of healing in the Bible (Hebrew and Christian). Native American healing rituals and methods. Modern healing services in churches, temples, etc. Twelve-Step programs for recovery from addictions. Shamanic soul retrieval. Countering and canceling curses. Spiritual cleansing (removal of non-living residue, thought forms, shells, etc.) Recovery and reintegration of soul-mind fragments. Reintegration of multiple personalities in MPD; psycho-synthesis. Removal of detrimental discarnate entities (major and minor exorcism, deliverance, detachment therapy, spirit releasement therapy, soul-rescue). Clearing, cleansing and aligning chakras. Mending the net-like structure of the spiritual body. Smoothing out dents and breaks in the aura. Finding and severing dark connections. Positive thinking (elevation) and negative thinking (depression).

Ben< /topic discussion of spiritual healing

Dreamz*< {{{Ben}}} Thank You!!!!!!

Aqua< In most spiritual healing cases, we might encounter some resistances, either from the patient or 'something' clinging to the patient ... so we must not just heal, but ask permission from the patient if that is okay. Most patients are not aware that some of their illness was due to their attachments to some spirit being attached to them, either they made accord or not to that spirit previously. A spirit being attached to the person must have their own reasons, so we as human healer should not abuse our 'bless' to chase them away just like that. It is wise to 'chat' with this being before freeing them from the patient ...

[Ben< Aqua: Yes. That is the main difference between classical exorcism and spirit releasement therapy.]

Lor< Aqua: My experience is that not all attachees are by any means beneficial or helpful. I do not believe that such that have evil intent need to give permission to be ousted when the situation calls for it. The patient's welfare does not always depend on agreement by all concerned, unfortunately.

Aqua< Lor: Yes, there are many beings in that side; evil or not, they are other intelligent life-forms, and they share the universe with us. Although they had committed bad/evil things in their part (not weigh the same to our side for same act), they also deserve rights to exist, don't they? Sorry to differ in this matter. *S*

Lor< Aqua: When a dark entity is ousted from a patient, that entity doesn't cease to exist! Dr. Baldwin rescues them back into the light. That is a much superior approach, it seems to me -- no need to let them continue to wreck havoc on some poor innocent person.

Abyss< Lor: What happens if they do not wish to go into the LIGHT?

Lor< Abyss: Check out Ben's reference to Dr. Baldwin's techniques on his site. I believe that issue is addressed there.

FRAML< Abyss: Responding to your question to Lor: Then they are kept wrapped up and safe from harming anyone else. Also, there are angels who are willing to work with them, to help them remember something from their past when they were attracted to the Light. Note that there is no time as we conceive of it in the Light/Heaven.

Abyss< FRAML: Why were they not kept wrapped up and safe from harming anyone else in the first place?

FRAML< Abyss: They have free will, just as we incarnate folks do. When people here die, their desires stay with them until they either shed them and go to the light or -- usually -- reincarnate. That there are demons is a fact that I have learned of the hard way.

Aqua< The spiritual world is working on "Resonance" level, so it is obvious and clear that any reaction extended to their world shall be "bounced" back !! ... very simplistic ... we human are the One who make it complicated. *S*

LAGONE< Ben: I asked and prayed for a healing miracle when my beloved husband was dying of cancer. My friends told me that I had one. He wasn't expected to live more than six months, but he stayed with me for two and a-half years. He was really only sick the three days before he died. At times all don't see it as a miracle ...

Ben< LAGONE: Yes. Thank you for posting that. Healing and extension of life as a result of prayer are examples of what I was looking for.

greyman< Ben, LAGONE: Sometimes one must feel much pain before one may be healed. I do not know why this is true or necessary, only that it saddens me every time I see it.

Lor< I've been told that pain is a device designed to protect us. Yet I do not understand why some people must endure so much. Our hearts go out to them in compassion, for we sense what such pain must be like.

bluestar< LAGONE: It is a blessing you had so much time, and that he seemed to suffer so little physical comfort/pain during the time. I was not so fortunate when my father died. (If one can call anything fortunate about losing one's loved one.)

LAGONE< bluestar: I did a lot of reading on herbs and vitamins. He told everyone that with all the pills, he rattled when he walked.

bluestar< LAGONE: I am into herbs and vitamins also ... and I know what you mean.

Aqua< In most spiritual healing progress, we can detect that the patient's Karma has not ripened, or not yet, so it is able for us to interfere, but when it is really the Karmic paying time, the best we could help is to split the patient's 'burden' into several small retributions so that the patient is able to cope with his Karma. Tell him what caused his Karma payment if he ever asks, otherwise remain silent. That is his Karma ... we can only speak out the truth if the time is right for him to know, also we must detect the level of our patients stress/fear as the truth uttered might cause more stress to him. If that happened, it means we help him but at the same time we commit sin (induced our patients with fear/stress).

Katherina< Ben: How does one stop attachments from happening? I ask because I have two entities that live in my house; both died by their own hands. They appear to pose no threat to me, just allow their presence to be known. Is there a way to help these entities (souls)? Can I find that on your site also?

Ben< Katherina: Yes, ghosts who haunt (hang around) houses can be helped (rescued). I have several examples on my site.

LAGONE< Ben: Isn't all healing spiritual? God gave the gift to doctors and the medicine to cure whether it's from natural or man-made substances ...

Ben< LAGONE: The cause of an illness or injury can be physical, or mental-emotional, or spiritual. Likewise, we need to select the right tool for the task. For example, if one has a broken leg, positive thinking and prayer may help, but also have a doctor (or someone) physically set the bone.

LAGONE< Ben: I think that my idea of spiritual is God-like ...

Ben< LAGONE: Yes, spiritual can mean God-like. However, that isn't the only meaning of the word.

[The next post was somewhat later in the raw transcript, but has been moved here for the sake of continuity.]

LAGONE< Ben: I just read the meaning [of spiritual] in the dictionary, and some of it goes back to my fear of the fallen angel. One would have to be very careful about delving into the wrong side.

Ben< LAGONE: I agree. Dabbling in the dark side can be very hazardous to one's health.

LAGONE< Ben: I do believe that the dark side can heal, but the price is too high for me. I like to keep my soul ...

[Ben< LAGONE: Good point. There are human beings and discarnate beings who offer healing, and promise healing, and actually heal if they can, as a way to get power over people. That is one reason why we need to discern motives by observing overall patterns of behavior. For example, Jim Jones first gathered his followers by preaching about healing, and then offering and promising to heal. He rigged up fake demonstrations of healing, so he surely would have healed if he could. But his real purpose was slowly revealed, step by step, as he exerted more and more dominance over his followers -- first their beliefs, and then later, every aspect of their lives. He crossed the line into coercion when he threatened and bullied and punished those who questioned his dominance or tried to leave his cult. Those who would not submit to him fled. Finally, he led the rest of his followers to Guyana, where they killed their children and each other and themselves at his command. So we each need to ask ourselves: How far would I have followed Jim Jones? Would I have discerned that downward trend and left the group? If so, at what point in that step-by-step process would I have bailed out?" ]

bluestar< Ben: Are the beneficial entities you have met with during healings always discarnate entities?

Ben< bluestar: *smile* No, there are many benevolent and beneficial *incarnate* entities. Those who help and heal and lift and mend and comfort and care for others. We can know them by their fruits (results).

Lor< bluestar: Many doctors who have often helped me were incarnate, although I do not discount the help of angels and the prayers of others.

bluestar< Ben and Lor: I mean souls helping at the soul level ... but souls from incarnate beings.

Ben< bluestar: Yes, some benevolent incarnate souls can and do work out-of-body to assist in healing.

bluestar< Ben: How do you tell the incarnate souls from the discarnate souls?

Ben< bluestar: It isn't easy to tell whether an entity is discarnate or an incarnate working out-of-body. That's why my mother asked me (years ago) to stop dropping in to see her while I was out-of-body. She said I looked like a ghost, so she always worried that I had died. I did stop. And thereafter we used a form of telepathy and telempathy that wasn't as clear as OBE.

bluestar< Very interesting life you must lead, Ben. "Now, Ben, you really must stop popping in on me like that without your body on."

Katherina< Ben: Will there be a meeting next week?

Ben< ALL: NO MEETING NEXT WEEK. I'll be away from home visiting my son and his family.

Katherina< Ben: Have a wondrous visit with your family ... *S* and thank you for the lessons. *S*

Aqua< Please respect other 'beings' in their 'home' when performing spiritual healing. *S* ((BEN)): Happy reunion with your dear family members next week!

bluestar< Ben: Do the incarnate souls ever identify themselves when you encounter them (if you don't know them already)?

Ben< bluestar: In my case, as you might now expect, it's usually the other way around. If I visit someone out-of-body, they are likely to know it is me. (See "Wrong Room" for an example of this.)

bluestar< Ben: I'll check it out ... thanks. I hope you have a pleasant visit with your son next week ... safe journey! Blessings and pleasant journeys to all.

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Seminars